Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation

[AHRNIHAL]

So did they not physically age during that time with Nathan?

Another body

[FUBAR007]

So did they not physically age during that time with Nathan?

No.

Rachel (as Mother Askani) pulled their minds into the future and put them in cloned bodies with the same powers as their original bodies. 12 years later, after they and young Nathan defeated Apocalypse, Rachel died, and Scott and Jean's minds returned to their original bodies in the present 2 hours after they left.

TL;DR: Scott and Jean's minds spent 12 years in the future while their present-day bodies were unconscious for 2 hours.

[lancer]

I'm not real good at remembering titles of issues. Even ones I may have enjoyed very much. I'm talking single issues here, not arcs. But I still remember the issue where their consciousness went back to their bodies. X MEN 35 SUNSET GRACE. Far as I ever read , the only appearance for that character.

I do think when analyzing the marriage, though, that you can say that counts as 12 years of marriage. Successful marriage. That's why things like Morrison's going through the motions just don't hold water.

[lucasjacobus]

I didn't like it, but I didn't fault the reasoning on Jean's part. I just wanted them to get married so I didn't like it in that sense. They were supposed to get married in X FACTOR. It was called off. MARVEL VISION, one of the preview magazines during the 90s, had an article on it. The cover was done. They were in wedding attire and were under attack. I believe it would have happened during the ENDGAME arc, 65-68. Or that was what was substituted. IIRC, Delfalco thought someting like that should happen in the main book. Obviously, it wasn't that simple or they would have gotten married , in UNCANNY or perhaps X MEN, by 1990 or 1991. It took to 94.

Anyway, I didn't read that issue and think it was over. Jean turns him down saying, I love you, I'll love you to the day I die. Simonson wasn't deconstructing the couple, as Morrison did. She put obstacles in their way. In my mind there is a big difference.

Sorry, they are not Reed and Sue. What was done with Jean and Scott would never be allowed to be done with them. Not that it was done with the other couples either. However, they have had other romantic interests. Reed and Sue have only been with each other aside from several kisses with Namor. That's not a relationship. Claremont introduced an old girl friend of Reed's. Set in the past, though. Nothing happened between them in the present.

Boy, that cover did conjure up some memories.

Yeah, but I think her refusal back then did not have anything to do with editorial interference or something like that, it would happen anyway and their wedding would take place regardless of that. Endgame ended up being an epic arc and a very nice farewell to X-Factor. I remember reading back then (35 yo...), and that drama over Scott's proposal and her refusal really made me feel bad back then.

Like you said, Weezie really was a great writer in terms of character development. Can't deny that she made me enjoy Jott since then. Totally agree with you about GM X LS.

I know they are not Reed and Sue, but it was the closest we can get by looking for similar couples. I think they are more than them, maybe Peter/MJ but we are talking about a couple of equal independent heroes that as a couple they become more than the mere sum of the parts... more like the heart and soul of the X-Men.

Trivia: Here in Brazil Marvel and DC comic books used to be published in smaller sizes (about 2/3 of the original) and there was about 3 years of delay... this was slowly addressed at the 90s and was reduced to about 1,5 years... now they are published with the same size as the originals. There were more than 1 publication on each magazine, back then X-Men had UXM, XF and NM in the mix, while Wolverine got Excalbur as well. IIRC, this story was in our X-Men #63. Oddly enough, you could buy the american magazines as well and watch TAS, with a totally different formation.

[lancer]

Just want to clarify. The editorial interference was not with X FACTOR 53. Far as I know that was what Simonson wanted to do. They were supposed to get married later, probably in the 60s. Now that I think of it, I believe it was in the letters column of one of the issues. Another now that I think of it. VISION may have stated that ENDGAME replaced it. Or perhaps they just amended the story. Been a very long time since I read that magazine. Definitely an article about it, though. It was supposed to happen and it had gotten far enough along that a cover was drawn. I don't care how long it's been since reading it. That part I definitely remember.

Just wanted to clear that up. It's 2 different things.

[FUBAR007]

Just want to clarify. The editorial interference was not with X FACTOR 53. Far as I know that was what Simonson wanted to do. They were supposed to get married later, probably in the 60s. Now that I think of it, I believe it was in the letters column of one of the issues. Another now that I think of it. VISION may have stated that ENDGAME replaced it. Or perhaps they just amended the story. Been a very long time since I read that magazine. Definitely an article about it, though. It was supposed to happen and it had gotten far enough along that a cover was drawn. I don't care how long it's been since reading it. That part I definitely remember.

Just wanted to clear that up. It's 2 different things.

Jean turned Scott's proposal down because of a character arc Simonson and Claremont were doing with her. It was intended as a reaction to the outcome of "Inferno" and as a way to subvert reader expectations. It's also why they had Jean react badly to Rachel in "Days of Future Present." I think Simonson and Claremont had different outcomes for the arc in mind, though. Claremont intended for it to culminate in Jean dumping Scott for Logan--Scott thus getting his "karmic comeuppance" for leaving Madelyne--while I think Simonson planned for Jean to eventually come around and stay with Scott (as seen in her X-Factor Forever mini-series a decade ago.)

It was Whilce Portacio and Jim Lee that intended for Scott and Jean to get married in X-Factor #66. Tom DeFalco nixed the idea, saying it was too big an event to happen in a spin-off title. Portacio and Lee went with the "Endgame" arc instead.

[phoenixzero23]

Some times i wonder what would have happened if Marvel didn't went with the evil clone thing. I mean i feel like Maddie would have died anyway, her sole purpose was to be scott's love interest so claremont could have the happy ending he had for Jean and Scott. With Jean back even if she wasn't in a relationship with Scott i think Marvel would still had problems with maddie. But claremont wouldn't have done this whole love triangle mess that has haunted the relationship since then. Jean would have dated wolverine or other guy but i feel like at the end of the day Jean & Scott would have found each other again.

[Gray Lensman]

Some times i wonder what would have happened if Marvel didn't went with the evil clone thing. I mean i feel like Maddie would have died anyway, her sole purpose was to be scott's love interest so claremont could have the happy ending he had for Jean and Scott. With Jean back even if she wasn't in a relationship with Scott i think Marvel would still had problems with maddie. But claremont wouldn't have done this whole love triangle mess that has haunted the relationship since then. Jean would have dated wolverine or other guy but i feel like at the end of the day Jean & Scott would have found each other again.

Once the original is back the life expectancy of any derivative character is limited. Maddie couldn't exist in her current (for the time) form once Jean returned - she was going to either change radically or die. And Rachel is likely going to do the same - die, emphasize the differences she has from Jean, or have new changes forced upon her.

[Starrius]

Some times i wonder what would have happened if Marvel didn't went with the evil clone thing. I mean i feel like Maddie would have died anyway, her sole purpose was to be scott's love interest so claremont could have the happy ending he had for Jean and Scott. With Jean back even if she wasn't in a relationship with Scott i think Marvel would still had problems with maddie. But claremont wouldn't have done this whole love triangle mess that has haunted the relationship since then. Jean would have dated wolverine or other guy but i feel like at the end of the day Jean & Scott would have found each other again.

Maddie was screwed from the very start
According to the comics, she both looked and sounded like Jean Grey


her ending up being Jean's clone made a lot of sense



Wolverine and Jean were shown to be attracted to each other before Maddie was even in the picture.
This was even before Jean flew the shuttle and leading her to become Phoenix (of course, retconned into Phoenix becoming Jean)
Wolverine was coming on very strong with Jean and he came off like a sexual predator.
Jean quit the team and part of it was because of her attraction to Wolverine that she admitted

[phoenixzero23]

Maddie was screwed from the very start
According to the comics, she both looked and sounded like Jean Grey


her ending up being Jean's clone made a lot of sense

Yup that didn't help at all

Once the original is back the life expectancy of any derivative character is limited. Maddie couldn't exist in her current (for the time) form once Jean returned - she was going to either change radically or die. And Rachel is likely going to do the same - die, emphasize the differences she has from Jean, or have new changes forced upon her.

Exactly!
It sucks what happened to Maddie but what else was marvel going to do with her when Jean came back?

[FUBAR007]

Some times i wonder what would have happened if Marvel didn't went with the evil clone thing. I mean i feel like Maddie would have died anyway, her sole purpose was to be scott's love interest so claremont could have the happy ending he had for Jean and Scott. With Jean back even if she wasn't in a relationship with Scott i think Marvel would still had problems with maddie. But claremont wouldn't have done this whole love triangle mess that has haunted the relationship since then. Jean would have dated wolverine or other guy but i feel like at the end of the day Jean & Scott would have found each other again.

Marvel should have simply revealed that Madelyne was really Jean all along. They could have even wickered in Busiek's "suspended animation" concept and the whole Phoenix mindmeld thing to explain her amnesia.

[JeisonWolf]

Wolverine and Jean were shown to be attracted to each other before Maddie was even in the picture.
This was even before Jean flew the shuttle and leading her to become Phoenix (of course, retconned into Phoenix becoming Jean)
Wolverine was coming on very strong with Jean and he came off like a sexual predator.
Jean quit the team and part of it was because of her attraction to Wolverine that she admitted

all this happened in Classic X-men and that was after Maddy and Jean had returned, before that Jean had not even interest in Wolverine, but with her return and the death of Scott and Maddy's marriage. CC decided to make Jean feel strongly attracted to Logan, as that was never seen in the original version, CC included all this in Classic X-men from his first issue.

all this as mentioned with the intention of punishing Scott.

[JeisonWolf]

I loved when Jott was synonymous of love.

[TheCape]

all this happened in Classic X-men and that was after Maddy and Jean had returned, before that Jean had not even interest in Wolverine, but with her return and the death of Scott and Maddy's marriage. CC decided to make Jean feel strongly attracted to Logan, as that was never seen in the original version, CC included all this in Classic X-men from his first issue.

all this as mentioned with the intention of punishing Scott.

I remember a scene in the DPS when Logan joked with Jean telling her that she was "a woman after her own heart" and she said in her mind " I really wish that i wasn't" lol, retconing you own canon is not something that Johns and Bendia started .

[lancer]

Jean turned Scott's proposal down because of a character arc Simonson and Claremont were doing with her. It was intended as a reaction to the outcome of "Inferno" and as a way to subvert reader expectations. It's also why they had Jean react badly to Rachel in "Days of Future Present." I think Simonson and Claremont had different outcomes for the arc in mind, though. Claremont intended for it to culminate in Jean dumping Scott for Logan--Scott thus getting his "karmic comeuppance" for leaving Madelyne--while I think Simonson planned for Jean to eventually come around and stay with Scott (as seen in her X-Factor Forever mini-series a decade ago.)

It was Whilce Portacio and Jim Lee that intended for Scott and Jean to get married in X-Factor #66. Tom DeFalco nixed the idea, saying it was too big an event to happen in a spin-off title. Portacio and Lee went with the "Endgame" arc instead.

I suppose you never know what a writer is going to do, but Simonson's writing never left me thinking they would break up. While she gave Jott plenty of obstacles Logan wasn't one of them. She did the kiss in XTINCTION, she wrote that issue. However, it's in a crossover Claremont collaborated on. She wrote Jean 50+ issues, where else? With all the problems between her and Scott, where are the scenes where she muses about her feelings for Logan? Compares and contrasts those feelings with those for Scott? There was a early issue where Jean thinks to herself that Logan was a friend who wanted to be more. She didn't mention her wanting more.

I don't think their take was the same on Phoenix. Claremont, in his CLASSIC backups, kept trying to make Jean as much Phoenix as he possibly could while X FACTOR was clear cut that she was not Phoenix.

Who knows for sure. Perhaps Simonson, if she stayed, would have broken them up. For me, at the time, I wasn't overly concerned with that happening. Just viewed 53 as another complication or obstacle that they would have to overcome. Now, if Claremont got his hand on Jean full time I would have been concerned. This would have been without knowing his plans. He had done too much Jogan for me not to be concerned.

All water long under the bridge at this point.