Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation

[Ulfhammer]

I know there's been confusion on if Jean rememebred anything from her time as a Ghost in the JG solo but that scan implies that she doesnt. She doesnt seem to know that the O5 are in present day as teens based on her confusion from seeing Scott. She'd of course know that since she hung around teen Jean but lost those memories when she got resurrected

The whole Ghost Jean thing basically just got dropped as far as I can tell. I really question the amount of coordination between Hopeless, Bunn and Rosenburg leading up to PR. I suppose one explanation is that Ghost Jean was absorbed into Phoenix egg once it showed up, but damn, that thread just got completely dropped.

Was this every really tied off? I don't recall that it was but let me know if I missed this getting covered off somewhere.

[TheCape]

The whole Ghost Jean thing basically just got dropped as far as I can tell. I really question the amount of coordination between Hopeless, Bunn and Rosenburg leading up to PR. I suppose one explanation is that Ghost Jean was absorbed into Phoenix egg once it showed up, but damn, that thread just got completely dropped.

Was this every really tied off? I don't recall that it was but let me know if I missed this getting covered off somewhere.

Coordination between books and writters and editors? what kind of bridge are you trying to sell me here good sir?

[lancer]

Yeah, that's what i said. Morrison's run is sadly to this day the definitive Jean/Scott story for many readers. Which honestly sucks because it was a total deconstruction of the relationship. they could have made scemma after killing Jean (if they didn't want her alive) and we wouldn't be in the sad place we are today.
Morrison without need did some serious probably unreparable damage to the relationship. to this day no other romance has been treated worse.

I'm not as definitive on your last line as you. They were my favorite couple, but fans of other couples who were broken up also have their takes of woe.
For example, I liked Petee/Gwen and Peter/MJ. I'm my mind, SINS PAST left a horrible taint in Gwen's character. And for what? The character was dead and stayed dead. Again, for what? To create a buzz. To hell with the integrity of the characters.

That's just one example. There are other. It hasn't only been JOTT. They just happen to be the couple we cared about the most.

[Ulfhammer]

Coordination between books and writters and editors? what kind of bridge are you trying to sell me here good sir?

Fair enough. But I recall Rosenburg specifically mentioning coordinating with Hopeless so it's actually him trying to sell you the bridge.

[Cmbmool]

Yeah, that's what i said. Morrison's run is sadly to this day the definitive Jean/Scott story for many readers. Which honestly sucks because it was a total deconstruction of the relationship. they could have made scemma after killing Jean (if they didn't want her alive) and we wouldn't be in the sad place we are today.
Morrison without need did some serious probably unreparable damage to the relationship. to this day no other romance has been treated worse.

I know it's not worse, but Spider-man made a deal with the devil to lose his marriage...Is that at the very least a close 2nd ?

[JeisonWolf]

I know it's not worse, but Spider-man made a deal with the devil to lose his marriage...Is that at the very least a close 2nd ?

Can someone explain this to me? Did he make a deal with the devil just to lose his marriage or was he forced to do so for some weight reason?

[TheCape]

Can someone explain this to me? Did he make a deal with the devil just to lose his marriage or was he forced to do so for some weight reason?

Long story short, Aunt May was shot after the Civil War when Peter reveal his identity to the world, the wound was, apparently so bad, that no one in thr Marvel Universe could heal her, so Mephisto appeared and told him that he could save May in exchange for his marriage for MJ, when he essentially guilt trip her in accepting the deal too (some fans argue about if he did that or not, but that's definerly how it read it to me), it ended with Mephisto warping reality in such a way that everything that happened beetween 87 and 2007 did.... but they weren't married, just super serious boyfriend and girlfriend and May was save by Peter making CPR to her when she was in the last end (or the " Power of Love" i supposed), i'm paraphrasing a lot (and this post is kind of bias) but that's essentially what happened.

[lancer]

I know it's not worse, but Spider-man made a deal with the devil to lose his marriage...Is that at the very least a close 2nd ?

Not worse for me and I cared about Spider-Man as much as I did Cyclops. It's how you view Mephisto, I suppose. I don't view him with the strict religious connotation that others seem to view him. I think of him as a demonic entity in the Marvel Universe.

I'm not advocating for ONE by any means. However, you are asking me which offended me worse, define Scott. And what I think Phoenixzero is talking about are stories that attack the couple.

Scott committed adultery in his wufe. Peter and MJ, in concert, made the decision to sacrifice this measure of their personal happiness to save May since May was in the condition she was in because Peter revealed himself as Spider-Man.

Now, the integrity of Peter as an individual is another matter. I can see, even if I don't, how some(hell, if cbr's boards are any indication, many) feel he made a "deal with thecdevil" and are outraged. I can relate since that's how I feel about the affair and Scott's charat, specifically. Difference is I think that also impugn Jott in a way that , for me, OMD didn't Peter/MJ.
No fan of Quesada, but he flat out said, no cheating, it will destroy the character.

Anything, though, with Spider-Man is going to get more attention. I think he's Marvel's biggest individual character. Cyclops is important, nothing On that scale. You can do things with Cyclops you can't do with Peter. But I guess that didn't stop OMD.

Just my personal opinion. Spend any time in the Spidey forum you will the abject hatred some posters have for OMD. Again, not a fan of either. ONE is when I dropped the Spider-Man books. Just a question of which I disliked more.

[FUBAR007]

The whole Ghost Jean thing basically just got dropped as far as I can tell. I really question the amount of coordination between Hopeless, Bunn and Rosenburg leading up to PR. I suppose one explanation is that Ghost Jean was absorbed into Phoenix egg once it showed up, but damn, that thread just got completely dropped.

Was this every really tied off? I don't recall that it was but let me know if I missed this getting covered off somewhere.

Not on-panel, no. The No Prize-style explanation you describe is pretty much it. I think Hopeless and Rosenberg "coordinated" only in so far as their respective stories didn't overtly contradict each other.

Although the current X-office isn't as dismissive of continuity as its immediate predecessor, it still takes a fairly loosey-goosey attitude toward it. I still have no idea when X-Men Red takes place relative to the other titles.

[Ulfhammer]

Not on-panel, no. The No Prize-style explanation you describe is pretty much it. I think Hopeless and Rosenberg "coordinated" only in so far as their respective stories didn't overtly contradict each other.

Although the current X-office isn't as dismissive of continuity as its immediate predecessor, it still takes a fairly loosey-goosey attitude toward it. I still have no idea when X-Men Red takes place relative to the other titles.

Actually, there's no way to know from what I can tell. Jean shows up in Annuals & mini's in sort of a pop in\pop out style with really nothing to go on. I suspect the creative teams don't give this a second thought, as you said, as long as nothing directly contradicts. White described his take on continuity recently as being a consequence of stories, rather than there basis. On the flip side he said that continuity of story was part of the appeal of UXM vol 1. Ultimately I think he's boiling the characters down to their core attributes and just running with that. Frankly I'm ok with that approach, as long as they don't carve too deep.

Piskor carved way too deep with Scott and Jean in Grand Design IMO. I don't want to see that become a trend.

[FUBAR007]

Actually, there's no way to know from what I can tell. Jean shows up in Annuals & mini's in sort of a pop in\pop out style with really nothing to go on. I suspect the creative teams don't give this a second thought, as you said, as long as nothing directly contradicts. White described his take on continuity recently as being a consequence of stories, rather than there basis. On the flip side he said that continuity of story was part of the appeal of UXM vol 1. Ultimately I think he's boiling the characters down to their core attributes and just running with that. Frankly I'm ok with that approach, as long as they don't carve too deep.

Piskor carved way too deep with Scott and Jean in Grand Design IMO. I don't want to see that become a trend.

Piskor did an interview with Claremont a while back in which he seemed to agree with Claremont's position that the launch of X-Factor, Scott walking out on Madelyne, etc. irrevocably broke the character. I expect that has influenced his interpretation of Scott and his portrayal of Jott.

I haven't read Grand Design, but, as it takes place in an alternate timeline, the liberties that Piskor has taken that I'm aware of haven't irked me much. It is its own self-contained thing.

[phoenixzero23]

I'm always lurking on the Jean thread and it surprises me how many people there believe Scott never, ever loved Jean, not even a little.

while that's a totally logical conclusion of New x-men and Endsong (which sadly ignored everything about the relationship except the fact that they were married) there were also many times after these stories were Marvel showed Scott still loved Jean. I mean there were, if people mocks cyclops for the so called "manpain" it means that he at least cared.

so i wanted to ask the people that come here regulary to help me remember these situations. Not to post them on the Jean thread, just to know.

[FeniSam]

I'm always lurking on the Jean thread and it surprises me how many people there believe Scott never, ever loved Jean, not even a little.

while that's a totally logical conclusion of New x-men and Endsong (which sadly ignored everything about the relationship except the fact that they were married) there were also many times after these stories were Marvel showed Scott still loved Jean. I mean there were, if people mocks cyclops for the so called "manpain" it means that he at least cared.

so i wanted to ask the people that come here regulary to help me remember these situations. Not to post them on the Jean thread, just to remember them.

I think the biggest issue for people who dislike the Jott pairing, like myself, is that Scott always was made out to seem self-serving and reckless regarding love. As FUBAR007 mentioned, the Madelyne fiasco did not paint Scott in a good light (as it threw a female character under the bus to excuse his actions), then Morrison did it again and THEN Marvel just ran with it for 14 years. It gets hard to see woods when the trees are so tall and big, is what I'm saying.

I do believe they loved each other even until the end of NXM, but Scott's character has specifically been excused in his poor behavior re: women for far too long. I would very much like to see that addressed in-universe, because he is an integral part of it even if I don't like the character.

[FUBAR007]

I'm always lurking on the Jean thread and it surprises me how many people there believe Scott never, ever loved Jean, not even a little.

Scott loves Jean so much he married Madelyne Pryor for looking and sounding like her. That's how desperate and lovesick for Jean that Scott was. Say what you want about Scott's mental health, but that's how deep Scott's feelings for Jean run. That alone puts paid to any idea that Scott never loved her. If anything, he loves her too much.

I've said before, and I continue to believe, that the crux of the issue is that Scott and Jean's romance is inherently fantastic. They're true soulmates, something that doesn't exist in the real world. Their relationship isn't supposed to be relatable or even aspirational; it's an epic fantasy romance. It's unrealistic by design. To approach it otherwise is to miss the point.

so i wanted to ask the people that come here regulary to help me remember these situations. Not to post them on the Jean thread, just to remember them.

In the back-up strips for Classic X-Men #41-42, Claremont wrote a two-part origin for Scott covering his time as an adolescent in Sinister's orphanage. It ends with Xavier and Jean telepathically contacting Scott while he's asleep and dreaming. Jean and Scott reach out to each other and the Phoenix flamebird effect flares up around them. Setting aside all the Phoenix continuity, to me, that scene visually encapsulates the nature of their relationship perfectly. It's all right there. They're two halves of a whole.

[TheCape]

I think the biggest issue for people who dislike the Jott pairing, like myself, is that Scott always was made out to seem self-serving and reckless regarding love. As FUBAR007 mentioned, the Madelyne fiasco did not paint Scott in a good light (as it threw a female character under the bus to excuse his actions), then Morrison did it again and THEN Marvel just ran with it for 14 years. It gets hard to see woods when the trees are so tall and big, is what I'm saying.

I do believe they loved each other even until the end of NXM, but Scott's character has specifically been excused in his poor behavior re: women for far too long. I would very much like to see that addressed in-universe, because he is an integral part of it even if I don't like the character.

I think that the Madelyne retcon made sense frankly, yes it turned her into a villain but frankly that plotline was weird, marrying a woman that looked like Jean in the span 0f 6 issues.... that sounds like her too, that just made him come across as a creepy obssesed weirdo, witch i don't think that is a direction that he needed to take with the characther, so i feel that it was a necessary evil... honestly i'm more surprised about the small fanbase that Maddie seems to have, i wonder what's about her that resonate with many people.