Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

I liked when they worked separately, but were together....when she was on team Gold & he was on team Blue. You don't always "work" with your spouse and it gave them both a way to flesh out their characters without being tied to each other.

[lancer]

Even that was just adding the attraction angle from Jean into the story but it was never a legit triangle Jean loved Logan but only as a friend she was in love with Scott and Logan never stood a chance until the Morrison run then it was being played as Jean's feelings could be deeper for Logan which was total bull given the 26 years of history between the characters by that point.

Yep. I always thought Jean/Logan was so overrated in the sense that it was never really presented as a credible threat to Scott/Jean. Claremont could retcon in whatever he wanted, but he was not her monthly handler at any point, after her return, umtil 2000. What are her monthly handlers, like Simonson, Nicieza and Lobdell, doing with Jean/Logan? It's a couple of isolated incidents with no real followup. Yet so many act like this was some tiresome ongoing thing. It was pretty much dead and buried in the 90s. Okay, AOA aside, but that was an alternate reality. Hell, Logan and Jean broke up there and something was brewing with Jean and Scott before they died.

Now the movies are different. IMO, he is played as more of a threat there. Just look at the screentime. Way more Jean/Logan screentime. Still shake my head 17 years later over the first movie. Not one Scott/Jean scene, I mean a real conversation. How many did Jean and Logan have? Second movie, Jean and SCott have some time, Jean and Logan still had more. The first kiss Jean and Logan. Third movie. Logan takes Scott's place as Jean's anchor. The Wolverine movie. Jean is in LOgan's dreams. THere is a connection there. Way more than in the comics when I was reading them.

Knock Fox cartoon Jean to your heart's content. It was far, far truer to the dynamics of the "triangle" than the movie was. The lion's share of the screentime is given to the actual couple.
Jean is in love with Scott and only Scott. There are a couple of scenes that show an attraction and Logan definitely has a bog thing for her. However, in context, it's played correctly.

I can still remember, after X2 came out, and people complaining about it. Others would post a panel from INFERNO or XTINCTION AGENDA saying that it's completely true to the comics. Again, context. Pick your year and compare Jean/SCott panel time and kisses versus Jean/Logans. You are not being true to the characters when over 2 movies there is 1 kiss and it's Jean and Logan. When they have 3 times the screen time as the actual couple. That was not an accurate depiction of the comics.

Mind you, all this was before the last 15 years. Things have changed. Scott and Jean haven't been together in close to 15 years. THey could have put him with Emma in the movies and it would be true to the books.

[MarvelMaster616]

I liked when they worked separately, but were together....when she was on team Gold & he was on team Blue. You don't always "work" with your spouse and it gave them both a way to flesh out their characters without being tied to each other.

I agree. I liked that setup too, having Cyclops and Jean operate on different teams. It allowed them both to function as individuals when they needed to and as a couple when they had a chance. There aren't a lot of comic book couples that successfully operate in that way. If they ever go to different teams, they tend to fail. We saw that happen recently with Kitty Pryde and Peter Quill. We've seen how Cyclops and Jean can hold their own. Jean was a major player in Extraordinary. Cyclops was a major player in All-New and Champions. They're not totally dependent on one another, but they still have plenty of dramatic chemistry. It's part of what makes their romance unique and special.

[Jokerz79]

I also loved in the 90's after their wedding that Scott and Jean converted the X-Mansion boat house into a home.

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

I agree. I liked that setup too, having Cyclops and Jean operate on different teams. It allowed them both to function as individuals when they needed to and as a couple when they had a chance. There aren't a lot of comic book couples that successfully operate in that way. If they ever go to different teams, they tend to fail. We saw that happen recently with Kitty Pryde and Peter Quill. We've seen how Cyclops and Jean can hold their own. Jean was a major player in Extraordinary. Cyclops was a major player in All-New and Champions. They're not totally dependent on one another, but they still have plenty of dramatic chemistry. It's part of what makes their romance unique and special.

Jean is a field agent she always has been. Xavier was stuck at the school because he had to be...she didn't have to be and there was a lot that she did without Scott, without the Phoenix that was taken for granted while she was alive.

I also loved in the 90's after their wedding that Scott and Jean converted the X-Mansion bathhouse into a home.

LOLOLOLOLOL it was a BOAT house....LOL

[Legaldrugdealer]

I also loved in the 90's after their wedding that Scott and Jean converted the X-Mansion bathhouse into a home.

They did? Guess I was not paying attention 20 some odd years ago,lol

[Jokerz79]

Jean is a field agent she always has been. Xavier was stuck at the school because he had to be...she didn't have to be and there was a lot that she did without Scott, without the Phoenix that was taken for granted while she was alive.



LOLOLOLOLOL it was a BOAT house....LOL

That was the funniest thing my auto-correct might have ever done

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

That was the funniest thing my auto-correct might have ever done

I literally LOL, but I knew what you meant and what you were talking about

[MarvelMaster616]

Jean is a field agent she always has been. Xavier was stuck at the school because he had to be...she didn't have to be and there was a lot that she did without Scott, without the Phoenix that was taken for granted while she was alive.

I agree that Jean's influence was taken for granted while she was alive. When I look at what happened to the X-men after her death, I think a lot of it would've been better had Jean been around. Granted, some events couldn't be avoided. Events like House of M were going to happen, regardless of Jean's presence. But others would have at least been mitigated to some degree.

However, while I think Jean is pretty decent in the field, I don't think she's a leader on the same level as Cyclops or Storm. We're already seeing that somewhat in X-men Blue. Jean has always been more of a diplomat. She garners respect from everybody, from Charles Xavier to Wolverine. It's a trait that even Xavier couldn't match, especially after Whedon's run on Astonishing X-men. She also had a knack for tempering others when necessary. She could get Cyclops, Wolverine, Xavier, or anybody from crossing certain lines. She could also inspire others to find a better way of doing things that don't compromise the dream. I always thought that was one of her greatest strengths. I hope as O5 Jean matures, we'll see more of that. Maybe after X-men Generations, we'll see her embrace that role to some extent.

I believe that if Xavier stays dead, then Jean Grey will eventually become the main visionary for the X-men. If her adult self comes back, I think that'll be her primary role. Kitty Pryde would still be a good field leader. Same with Ororo and Cyclops. But I think Jean would be the face of the X-men moving forward if Xavier isn't there. And I hope one day she gets a chance to embrace that role. She was on that path towards the end of Morrison's run. I think that's a path that would serve her, and her relationship with Cyclops, well in the future.

[Phoenixx9]

I agree with Jean being the X-Men visionary. Jean tries to be very compassionate and peaceful. As you said, with Xavier dead, Jean should step up to her rightful place. I would really look forward to this happening.

[FUBAR007]

That brings up an interesting question I love this scene and their bond during that run but it really wasn't Jean it was Phoenix. Even though Phoenix turned herself into Jean so completely she even believed it so since she was so perfectly duplicated it's easy to say this is what Jean would had done but still is it Jean?

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: technically, no, but, in a way, yes. In Inferno, Jean absorbed both Phoenix and Madelyne's memories so, after that, she remembered it as if it had been her. The Jean that proposed to Scott, the Jean that married him, the Jean that spent over a decade in the future with him had those memories.

As a side note, I do wish Simonson had played this out a bit more and written post-Inferno Jean as more of a gestalt personality. Instead, Jean had multiple personality disorder for a few issues until she expelled Phoenix and Madelyne's personas (but retained their memories) in X-Factor #50.

[FUBAR007]

SO I've been wondering recently if Morrison might've drawn more on the movie versions of Scott and Jean for their relationship dynamics. The timing seems to work out, and as people have pointed out before his run differed quite a bit from what came before in his portrayal of Scott and Jean's relationship as estranged & passionless. Personally speaking I was somewhat caught off guard by how little the affair actually upset me given that adultery is normally a sticking point for me. In my case I think it might have to do with the fact that I hadn't read any X-Men before and that Morrison's was my first foray, so I was coming off of the movie versions. The way the story is actually written seems to go out it's way to make the whole thing seem less contemptible. Scott and Jean have almost (or literally?) zero positive/loving moments that might actually make readers (that are relatively new at least) give a **** about all the drama.

It doesn't really make sense as something built off of the previous in continuity stories, but if it was written to sync up tonewise with the movies it makes a lot more sense. Maybe this isn't the right place for the post, but I was wondering if this was something that's been talked about before.

Morrison's rationalization was that Scott and Jean's relationship had become stale, that their moment had come and gone with the end of the Dark Phoenix Saga, and that Scott was justified in cheating on Jean with Emma because Jean "wasn't being his wife anymore." (Source: Comic Creators on X-Men by Tom DeFalco)

Over the years, some fans have read the affair as meta-commentary by Morrison on Scott and Jean's relationship from 1986 onward. Others claim he wrote the affair based on his own life with Jean modeled on his ex-wife and Emma based on his new girlfriend. Still others have said it was Jean's karmic comeuppance for "stealing" Scott away from Madelyne in the early issues of X-Factor or for all her romantic encounters with Wolverine.

Personally, I think Morrison, being a very countercultural sort, just found Scott and Jean to be vanilla, boring, and played out. He had a mandate from Marvel editorial to shake up the status quo of the X-Men comics, and their relationship was one more aspect of the old order for him to demolish.

The movies may have been an influence, but I don't recall Morrison every specifically saying that they played a part in his depiction of Scott and Jean's relationship.

[lancer]

Can't say I was a fan of them being on separate teams. Perhaps because that was when the whole Psylocke subplot went on. I think they can be on a field mission together and still function as individuals. I've read numerous issues where this was the case.

Jean/Phoenix depends on the writer. With Claremont you would get more Jean was/is Phoenix. Louise Simonson's X FACTOR was pretty explicit that she wasn't. Ergo how JUDGEMENT WARS played out. Not a real problem for me since I was a Jean/Scott fan before Phoenix and was one afterward. My affection for them was not predicated on that.

I know nothing about Grant Morrison personally. I tend to assume, perhaps incorrectly, that the writers can separate their personal lives from their view of the characters. Although I recall him admitting what he was going through personally might have been a factor in PLANET X. Perhaps that is just how he saw Jean and Scott? It's not like he was alone in that opinion.

It's been many years since I read COMIC CREATORS ON THE X MEN. He said Jean wasn't being a wife to Scott? He wrote the scene that made it clear that Jean has been trying. I believe it was for 5 months? SCott has shut her out emotionally and physically since he came back. He has been traumatized, I empathized, until he began an affair with another woman. But where was Jean not being a wife? It would be different if she was travelling with Xavier when his run began. She isn't away from the mansion until about 15 issues into his run

One thing I specifically remember from the Morrison interview for that book. His acknowledging, psychic or not, that it was adultery.

[v_jeovanne]

Can't say I was a fan of them being on separate teams. Perhaps because that was when the whole Psylocke subplot went on. I think they can be on a field mission together and still function as individuals. I've read numerous issues where this was the case.

Jean/Phoenix depends on the writer. With Claremont you would get more Jean was/is Phoenix. Louise Simonson's X FACTOR was pretty explicit that she wasn't. Ergo how JUDGEMENT WARS played out. Not a real problem for me since I was a Jean/Scott fan before Phoenix and was one afterward. My affection for them was not predicated on that.

I know nothing about Grant Morrison personally. I tend to assume, perhaps incorrectly, that the writers can separate their personal lives from their view of the characters. Although I recall him admitting what he was going through personally might have been a factor in PLANET X. Perhaps that is just how he saw Jean and Scott? It's not like he was alone in that opinion.

It's been many years since I read COMIC CREATORS ON THE X MEN. He said Jean wasn't being a wife to Scott? He wrote the scene that made it clear that Jean has been trying. I believe it was for 5 months? SCott has shut her out emotionally and physically since he came back. He has been traumatized, I empathized, until he began an affair with another woman. But where was Jean not being a wife? It would be different if she was travelling with Xavier when his run began. She isn't away from the mansion until about 15 issues into his run

One thing I specifically remember from the Morrison interview for that book. His acknowledging, psychic or not, that it was adultery.

I remember reading when I was a kid in a magazine to Morrison mention how boring Scott and Jean were, but that he did not plan to separate them, and that what he planned would put them in a position more like Redd and Sue.
So I always thought that Emma had taken Jean's place as the main piece in the story they had planned.
Now years later I found out I was wrong.

[MarvelMaster616]

Found this image on Facebook. Just thought I'd share it in this thread. Has some very surreal, spiritual overtones. When both Cyclops and Jean Grey have had encounters with cosmic forces, I think that's very fitting.

zzjean.jpg