Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation

[Havok83]

I'm not sure what kind of friends you have but I don't kiss my "friends" like that. I can agree with some of what you're saying here, but whatever they are to each other, I wouldn't define it fundamentally as "friends" at this point.

They were two people together for the first time in years. They werent friends in PR but again Scott is dead and isnt around to see the fallout of any of this. Had he made it out of that mini, he and Jean werent necesarily going to go back to carrying on as husband and wife but it gave them closure so that they could be two exes that could live lfe as friends with potential for a reunion down the line

[Wiccan]

I agree that it would be more complicated if he actually came back. But I do think that Phoenix Resurrection, at the very least, shows what they feel and always will feel for each other deep down.

[Ulfhammer]

They were two people together for the first time in years. They werent friends in PR but again Scott is dead and isnt around to see the fallout of any of this. Had he made it out of that mini, he and Jean werent necesarily going to go back to carrying on as husband and wife but it gave them closure so that they could be two exes that could live lfe as friends with potential for a reunion down the line

I understand that's your interpretation. At no point did I suggest everything was going to fall back into place. What I saw there was the desire to have a moment together overriding everything else between them. Yes as I said earlier it was a false premise because Scott wasn't really back. If he was though, I don't really see that moment playing out any differently... do you?

And let's be clear. Their not exes, their widowers, at least Scott is. Any widower will tell you that's not at all the same thing.

[Havok83]

Last I checked, it was an official Marvel publication set in the Marvel Universe, so no. Like it or not, unless Marvel retcons it, it's canon.



Did you miss the scene where they embrace, kiss, and profess their eternal love for each other?



I don't disagree with you in principle, but, as I said, PR already bypassed all that and went straight to the reconciliation. Marvel clearly isn't interested in revisiting their marital problems in any depth. They just want to move past it.



Jean being a leader and Jean being with Scott aren't mutually exclusive. If anything, even in RightClops mode, he'd be supportive of her.



In-universe, their relationship will work if Marvel editorial decides that it works. We don't get a vote.

I never said it wasnt canon but AGAIN it glossed over alot and doesnt deal with the fallout of Scott and Jean coexisting bc he remained dead

No I didnt but did you see a scene of them walking off together agreeing to continue their marriage?

And that is a damn shamed and would doom them to have the same criticisms people had of them before. Jean and Scott shouldnt be perfect. They should be written with flaws and more realistic. Their ability to work through their problems and move on makes for a more dynamic couple than to just sweep things under the wrong. It does Scott and Jean a disservice if they had him come back and act like nothings changed

No they arent but Jean has never been this free with Scott, like ever. The roles have reversed and she's being more like him in terms of leading. In the past she's stepped to the side and been supportive of him bc that was his position but its now hers and he needs to accept that. The closest we got was Jean as headmistress and helping launch X-Corp during the Morrison run and Scott wasnt exactly supportive. He was checked out and she was faulted for not paying enough attention to him. He will come back to her pursuing those dreams and he cant feel emasculated by having a much stronger Jean to deal with

Obviously we dont dictate what Marvel editorial does but isnt the point of a discussion forum to discuss? We are all discussing what we want which isnt guaranteed to happen

I understand that's your interpretation. At no point did I suggest everything was going to fall back into place. What I saw there was the desire to have a moment together overriding everything else between them. Yes as I said earlier it was a false premise because Scott wasn't really back. If he was though, I don't really see that moment playing out any differently... do you?

And let's be clear. Their not exes, their widowers, at least Scott is. Any widower will tell you that's not at all the same thing.

Jean is alive and if Scott theoretically comes back in this scenario we are discussing, so will he, so neither would be widowers. They'd be exes or lovers depending on where they decide to go

[FUBAR007]

I'm not convinced absolution is required at this point for them to reconcile. I reject the view that says Jean wouldn't love the man he became.

I don't disagree. As I've said, Scott and Jean have already reconciled so, even though it was awfully short and quick, that's done.

When I talk about Scott going back to the heroic character he used to be, I'm talking about that beyond just his relationship with Jean. I'm responding to this idea that Scott needs a redemption arc. He's crossed too many lines for it to be that simple or easy. A redemption arc will just, at best, get him up to atoning anti-hero status, not hero status. In other words, even a reformed RightClops won't be the same as Boyscott.

[Ulfhammer]

I don't disagree. As I've said, Scott and Jean have already reconciled so, even though it was awfully short and quick, that's done.

When I talk about Scott going back to the heroic character he used to be, I'm talking about that beyond just his relationship with Jean. I'm responding to this idea that Scott needs a redemption arc. He's crossed too many lines for it to be that simple or easy. A redemption arc will just, at best, get him up to atoning anti-hero status, not hero status. In other words, even a reformed RightClops won't be the same as Boyscott.

Ok. Well one step at a time. I think Jean takes priority over Scott's position in the X-Men, or should.

Regardless, I don't thing the genie goes back in the bottle. As much as I want "BoyScott" that's probably never going to happen in any reasonable way. I think there's a middle ground that we can be happy with. Honestly my only problem with Scott from Astonishing thru the start of Utopia was that he was shagging Emma. And really my only problem with that was he should have been pining away for Jean (or at least grieving a little) instead of having the longest rebound ever.

[Wiccan]

I don't disagree. As I've said, Scott and Jean have already reconciled so, even though it was awfully short and quick, that's done.

When I talk about Scott going back to the heroic character he used to be, I'm talking about that beyond just his relationship with Jean. I'm responding to this idea that Scott needs a redemption arc. He's crossed too many lines for it to be that simple or easy. A redemption arc will just, at best, get him up to atoning anti-hero status, not hero status. In other words, even a reformed RightClops won't be the same as Boyscott.

And he shouldn't be. Characters should evolve. For him to go on a different direction from Boyscott or Rightclops(that could even feel like a bit of both) after his return is only the natural ideal thing to do. Retconning things to not have happened is never the best choice. You may not like how he was, but some people did. We just need for everyone to be open to change instead of ruining what the other one liked.

[FUBAR007]

I never said it wasnt canon

You said it was fanfiction!

And that is a damn shamed and would doom them to have the same criticisms people had of them before. Jean and Scott shouldnt be perfect. They should be written with flaws and more realistic. Their ability to work through their problems and move on makes for a more dynamic couple than to just sweep things under the wrong. It does Scott and Jean a disservice if they had him come back and act like nothings changed

I don't disagree, but I see no inclination on Marvel's part to address any of that.

No they arent but Jean has never been this free with Scott, like ever. The roles have reversed and she's being more like him in terms of leading. In the past she's stepped to the side and been supportive of him bc that was his position but its now hers and he needs to accept that. The closest we got was Jean as headmistress and helping launch X-Corp during the Morrison run and Scott wasnt exactly supportive. He was checked out and she was faulted for not paying enough attention to him. He will come back to her pursuing those dreams and he cant feel emasculated by having a much stronger Jean to deal with

I think you're projecting here. As Morrison wrote it, none of Scott and Jean's marital problems stemmed from her taking on a greater leadership role. Their marriage was already on the rocks before that.

Obviously we dont dictate what Marvel editorial does but isnt the point of a discussion forum to discuss? We are all discussing what we want which isnt guaranteed to happen

I'm sorry, but I find some of your posting unclear. You seem to blend canon (what happened) with your headcanon/interpretation (what you think happened "between panels") and how you think things should happen (your vision based on your view of the characters) with how things likely will happen (what Marvel probably will do). Clearer distinctions between those four things would be helpful.

[Ulfhammer]

Jean is alive and if Scott theoretically comes back in this scenario we are discussing, so will he, so neither would be widowers. They'd be exes or lovers depending on where they decide to go

Their relationship ended in death, not a divorce so if you look at where things would be picked back up, that's the accurate status quo. Of course this doesn't really translate in real world terms given the dearth of spouses who come back from the dead.

[Havok83]

Then dont respond to my posts. I feel Ive been clear enough especially with my further responses to explain my stance. Im sorry if you still don't understand my stance.

Their relationship ended in death, not a divorce so if you look at where things would be picked back up, that's the accurate status quo. Of course this doesn't really translate in real world terms given the dearth of spouses who come back from the dead.

Would you not consider Madelyne to be Scott's ex? Because their marriage ended in death and they never divorced.

[Ulfhammer]

And he shouldn't be. Characters should evolve. For him to go on a different direction from Boyscott or Rightclops(that could even feel like a bit of both) after his return is only the natural ideal thing to do. Retconning things to not have happened is never the best choice. You may not like how he was, but some people did. We just need for everyone to be open to change instead of ruining what the other one liked.

You make it sound so easy .

In my experience the RightClops fans and BoyScott fans don't have a whole lot in common.

[Wiccan]

You make it sound so easy .

In my experience the RightClops fans and BoyScott fans don't have a whole lot in common.

What I'm trying to say is, when he comes back, he might as well be a new Scott that both of these can enjoy, instead of those extremes.

[FUBAR007]

Retconning things to not have happened is never the best choice.

Eh, we'll have to disagree on that.

Like any device, retconning can be used for good or for bad. Some stories are just plain **** and do more harm than good to the characters and the canon.

You may not like how he was, but some people did.

You're a more considerate soul than I. I really don't care.

[Ulfhammer]

What I'm trying to say is, when he comes back, he might as well be a new Scott that both of these can enjoy, instead of those extremes.

That would be great. I'm just anticipating problems with that approach where neither group feels fulfilled. In my experience comics struggle with this kind of nuance.

[FUBAR007]

Their relationship ended in death, not a divorce so if you look at where things would be picked back up, that's the accurate status quo.

This happens often enough in the Marvel Universe, it'd be worth it for Marvel to establish just what the in-universe legal precedent is in such cases. At the very least, they could get an entertaining She-Hulk story or two out of it.