Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation

[wano]

I don't think there is any need to retcon anything. The best way to do touch the topic is like adult people do, admiting faults and apologizing.

again i think that if the point is stop the toxic discussion keeping them totally apart is unrealistic and only keeps giving that moment more power by making it the defining moment on the relationship.

Also i think domestic violence is way worse than an affair (not saying the other thing isn't bad), like at least for me they are not on the same level and i hate the comparisson. Yeah Jean and Scott had it rought at the end, they were a bit disfunctional during morrison but domestic violence is a whole other thing. Hank Pym is worse (to me at least), like that's a really bad comparisson. Scott has fallen sometimes but not that low

In Hank pym defense he's schyzophrenic and suffering dissociative personality disorder, if anything he belonged in a shrink not in the avengers, and he seems to regret everything he'd done, also two wrongs don't make a right and there's no point in bringing hank pym to the equation, he's suffered enough. . .

On the other hand I'm pretty sure cyclops has apologized enough and words are words, actions should speak louder, I'd usually say he'd show it by becoming a man Jean would be proud of, but he's dead so not much of an opportunity for that , and if anything , ultimately he'd become the person he desires to be, not live up to other expectations, because in my opinion that's his ruin. Also he abandoned his wife and baby in alaska all alone, then had a literal fight agains maddie, he also killed his mentor, became literally hitler according to inhumans PR, storm, Iceman, wolverine, etc, so that's a pretty low low to top

[phoenixzero23]

I don't know but i can't like Hank Pym, i find the comparisson offensive to be honest. Scott even if his lowest isn't as much of a loser as Pym. Maybe i just find marital troubles like the ones with maddie and jean less bad (every marriage has problems, the perfect marriage doesn't exist) in comparission to violence. Like one thing is having doubts about your feelings and messing up but violence to me is worse.

[wano]

I don't know but i can't like Hank Pym, i find the comparisson offensive to be honest. Scott even if his lowest isn't as much of a loser as Pym. Maybe i just find marital troubles like the ones with maddie and jean less bad (every marriage has problems, the perfect marriage doesn't exist) in comparission to violence. Like one thing is having doubts about your feelings and messing up but violence to me is worse.

Yeah I won't berate you for not liking Hank pym, to each it's own. But At least try to understand how the character got to that point, first of all he's suffering from mental illness for a while (thanks to ultron messing with his memory), then if you read about his marriage with wasp she took advantage that' he's under a dissociative personality disorder/schyzophrenic attack and tricked him into marriage (and nobody said anything about that!), and his friends (avengers) didn't do anything in particular to get him into a mental facility and then kicked him from the avengers and allowed him to get thrown into prison for crimes he didn't commit, I won't say this excuses his actions but I've come to believe he wasn't in his full mental capacities when the slapped Jan, on another note apparently editorial was trying to push Wasp as a leader and felt the neccesity to bring down Pym along the way, and the fans letters around that time showed that fans were very aware of that

[PsychoEFrost]

I don't think there is any need to retcon anything. The best way to do touch the topic is like adult people do, admiting faults and apologizing.

again i think that if the point is stop the toxic discussion keeping them totally apart is unrealistic and only keeps giving that moment more power by making it the defining moment on the relationship.

Cannot possibly agree with this more.

[Hizashi]

Phone sex isn't close to a mental simulation.

Bingo. Phone sex? This goes way, way beyond phone sex. I suppose it comes down to how you view world class telepaths, and their abilities, in the Marvel Universe. I will bring up the example I normally bring up. MUIR ISLAND SAGA. Charles Xavier was crippled again in that story. Not from anything that happened on the physical plane. From injuries sustained on the astral plane.

It's why I view what Scott did, while not the SAME thing as a physical affair, close enough in my view to count it as adultery.

Never said it was a 1:1 analogue. Obviously, still a bad thing.

[Hizashi]

Cannot possibly agree with this more.

It’s too sensible an outcome.

[TheDeadSpace]

I don't think there is any need to retcon anything. The best way to do touch the topic is like adult people do, admiting faults and apologizing.

again i think that if the point is stop the toxic discussion keeping them totally apart is unrealistic and only keeps giving that moment more power by making it the defining moment on the relationship.

Also i think domestic violence is way worse than an affair (not saying the other thing isn't bad), like at least for me they are not on the same level and i hate the comparisson. Yeah Jean and Scott had it rought at the end, they were a bit disfunctional during morrison but domestic violence is a whole other thing. Hank Pym is worse (to me at least), like that's a really bad comparisson. Scott has fallen sometimes but not that low

This seems to be the best way to fix the issue and move forward. Unfortunately, I doubt Marvel will take this route when Jean and Scott meet.

[Abbz_A]

I don't think there is any need to retcon anything. The best way to do touch the topic is like adult people do, admiting faults and apologizing.

again i think that if the point is stop the toxic discussion keeping them totally apart is unrealistic and only keeps giving that moment more power by making it the defining moment on the relationship.

Also i think domestic violence is way worse than an affair (not saying the other thing isn't bad), like at least for me they are not on the same level and i hate the comparisson. Yeah Jean and Scott had it rought at the end, they were a bit disfunctional during morrison but domestic violence is a whole other thing. Hank Pym is worse (to me at least), like that's a really bad comparisson. Scott has fallen sometimes but not that low

Agreed. Let them talk it out like how adults do ... it’s no hard. But I don’t know what marvel wants to do, I’m scared

[Lokimaru]

Sure don't agree about the first part. Jean doesn't have to be around. Scott was shacked up with the woman he had the affair with 5 minutes after Jean died. That is shoving the affair right in our face. Maybe if Scott and Emma weren't together it might have faded. But the way Marvel did it didn't keep Scott from becoming the alpha dog of the X universe. Or so I read.

Right now, I can see your point. Him back with Jean I can see as being more likely to spur conversation about the affair. I still think the hating is just message board conversation that I doubt Marvel is sweating. And it's not like it's all hatred. Haven't done any actual counting, but my impression is Scott has at least as many people defending him on this as criticizing him.

Originally Scott Left the X-Men after Jean died. A version of Jean from a bad future made Scott stay taking away his Free will. Jean took away Scott's Agency, Put the Shoe on the other foot an No one would have stood for that. It's the Double standard Again.

[Havok83]

Originally Scott Left the X-Men after Jean died. A version of Jean from a bad future made Scott stay taking away his Free will. Jean took away Scott's Agency, Put the Shoe on the other foot an No one would have stood for that. It's the Double standard Again.

Lancer's point still remains; Marvel did shove the pairing of Scott and Emma down our throats after Jean died. There was nothing subtle about it as the two spearheaded the X-line and their presence was felt in almost every book. I actually think it would have been bearable if they had let Scott be single for a bit and then he and Emma come together due to their attraction which he tried to fight bc of his guilt. Instead Emma got the man and was written as very smug and full of herself and Scott was a bit off putting. Sure many fans grew to love them but I think Marvel handled it horribly and did quite a bit of damage to both characters in the process

[Abbz_A]

Lancer's point still remains; Marvel did shove the pairing of Scott and Emma down our throats after Jean died. There was nothing subtle about it as the two spearheaded the X-line and their presence was felt in almost every book. I actually think it would have been bearable if they had let Scott be single for a bit and then he and Emma come together due to their attraction which he tried to fight bc of his guilt. Instead Emma got the man and was written as very smug and full of herself and Scott was a bit off putting. Sure many fans grew to love them but I think Marvel handled it horribly and did quite a bit of damage to both characters in the process

Marvel did handle it badly, that’s true.
But Scott moving on with Emma wasn’t his first choice ... He was gonna leave the X-Men. But Jean took away his guilt and pushed him to be with Emma. So, why is Scott to blame? When he initially wanted nothing to do with Emma n the X-Men.

I agree with Lokimaru ... it’s double Standard.

[Havok83]

Marvel did handle it badly, that’s true.
But Scott moving on with Emma wasn’t his first choice ... He was gonna leave the X-Men. But Jean took away his guilt and pushed him to be with Emma. So, why is Scott to blame? When he initially wanted nothing to do with Emma n the X-Men.

I agree with Lokimaru ... it’s double Standard.

Again its no the fact that Scott and Emma got together, but how it was handled. Phoenix in the future isnt what caused Marvel to shove them down our throats in the months and years following Morrison's exit. Its kind of ironic that they retconned and dismissed so much of his run as soon as he left but doubled down on Scott and Emma in such an egregious way. They were done in poor taste when Marvel could have portayed them with a bit more tact

[JeisonWolf]

I agree with Lokimaru if it were the other way around, would people accuse Jean or say that it was not her fault that Scott changed her decisions to save the world? even if it means that she was with another person.

For these things I'm still in favor of Jott, now is not as bad as many people think, I mean both cheated, both were out of character, but despite that both still loved each other.

Scott had the matter with Emma? Jean had two kisses with Logan, one of them really passionate, that if they had not returned maybe it would have gone to more, if it had not been bad, Jean would not have acted as if nothing had happened after seeing Scott. After Jean's death, Scott's pain and guilt made him leave the X-men, rejecting Emma was the least important thing to him, not only rejected her, rejected what he had fought for all his life. In a bad way, without Jean, he had no reason to live anymore, Jean changed that, but that was not Scott's decision.

[lancer]

I'm not going to debate an ongoing affair vs domestic violence. Okay, see the latter is worse. In my mind it's like, now someone robbed three banks instead of one. Scott still crossed a line that he cannot be allowed to cross. That there are certainly far greater transgressions he could have committed does not negate this fact. Check that, opinion. Just my opinion that you shouldn't let him do that.

As was mentioned above, there is context to Pym's abuse as far as having a nervous breakdown. However, despite that, it wound up being one of the character's signature points. Multiple creators went back to it. And there were long stretches where they didn't. Then someone comes along who wants to again. And it's all in bounds because the story was allowed to be told in the first place.

That's Scott now, IMO. 2 failed marriages and an affair. Remarry Jott again and i see it as just a matter of time. Again, it's all in bounds now. You can't complain it's out of character when it's part of the character's history. Why can't they be Reed and Sue? Because those types of stories aren't allowed to be told with Reed and Sue.

No disagreement about HCT Jean's actions being morally dicey. Never once have I argued otherwise. We can, and certainly have, debate the specifics of what she did. However, it's unequivocal that what she did to Scott caused a change in his decision. We know that because an entire timeline played out after he walked away at the end of NXM 150.

His free choice was taken from him. While it was done out of love, and probably for his own good, it can certainly be argued that he should have the right to make his own choice. That if he wants to wallow in despair/guilt that it should be his choice to do or not do.

Mind you, none of this changes Scott's sins, and that is what I was discussing. If I were discussing Jean and questionable behavior, HCT would be a candidate.

[The Jeeper 2.0]

I'm not going to debate an ongoing affair vs domestic violence. Okay, see the latter is worse. In my mind it's like, now someone robbed three banks instead of one. Scott still crossed a line that he cannot be allowed to cross. That there are certainly far greater transgressions he could have committed does not negate this fact. Check that, opinion. Just my opinion that you shouldn't let him do that.

As was mentioned above, there is context to Pym's abuse as far as having a nervous breakdown. However, despite that, it wound up being one of the character's signature points. Multiple creators went back to it. And there were long stretches where they didn't. Then someone comes along who wants to again. And it's all in bounds because the story was allowed to be told in the first place.

That's Scott now, IMO. 2 failed marriages and an affair. Remarry Jott again and i see it as just a matter of time. Again, it's all in bounds now. You can't complain it's out of character when it's part of the character's history. Why can't they be Reed and Sue? Because those types of stories aren't allowed to be told with Reed and Sue.

No disagreement about HCT Jean's actions being morally dicey. Never once have I argued otherwise. We can, and certainly have, debate the specifics of what she did. However, it's unequivocal that what she did to Scott caused a change in his decision. We know that because an entire timeline played out after he walked away at the end of NXM 150.

His free choice was taken from him. While it was done out of love, and probably for his own good, it can certainly be argued that he should have the right to make his own choice. That if he wants to wallow in despair/guilt that it should be his choice to do or not do.

Mind you, none of this changes Scott's sins, and that is what I was discussing. If I were discussing Jean and questionable behavior, HCT would be a candidate.

Yeah but there you go judging. Relationships are complex and need to be treated as such. What may be a red line for you may not be a red line for others.