Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation

[lancer]

Again its no the fact that Scott and Emma got together, but how it was handled. Phoenix in the future isnt what caused Marvel to shove them down our throats in the months and years following Morrison's exit. Its kind of ironic that they retconned and dismissed so much of his run as soon as he left but doubled down on Scott and Emma in such an egregious way. They were done in poor taste when Marvel could have portayed them with a bit more tact

Horrible taste. It's the phrase I used. While I could not condemn Scott the character for hooking up with Emma so soon after Jean died, as a reader looking in, I found it in horrible taste. Just like the last page of NXM 154. Nauseating. Instead, show of a sliver of good taste, have him take her hand and walk away together. This reader would have gotten the drift. Then they are doing it again the next issue, written by Austen. Disgusting. You think Marvel could pay me to read that? I saw the page online.

Always goes back to personal tastes. When NXM 154 came out, I distinctly recall message board posts calling the ending hopeful, positive, uplifting. Commending Morrison for this. Meanwhile I felt the complete opposite. Just horrendous taste. You want to tell me a lot of that was Jott bias, maybe you are right. How I felt, though.

[lancer]

Yeah but there you go judging. Relationships are complex and need to be treated as such. What may be a red line for you may not be a red line for others.

Which I've said over and over. My line is my line. It is subjective. There is no actual objective line.
Someone else's line is somewhere else. Or they don't have lines. They ride with the punches. I'm not forcing my opinions on anyone else. Have your own. If you can enjoy the relationship and characters the same despite these issues, knock yourself out.

[FUBAR007]

Egads, there is one person that agrees with me. Actually, I think Fubar might as well. Not sure, though. That would make 3. A veritable army.

I agree that the affair was a mistake and a "story that shouldn't have been told." IMO, it diminished and deconstructed Jott (a pillar of the X-mythos), and it severely damaged Scott's moral credibility, made him despicable rather than sympathetic, ignored two decades of character development, and broke him as a character. (For those of you interested in my views in expansive detail, please refer to the old, closed Cyclops Appreciation thread circa a year ago when Ulfhammer and I beat this subject to death and beyond.)

While, as a hardcore Jott shipper, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest if the affair was retconned out, I know it's not going to happen, and it doesn't need to. The affair is, as we say in my industry, OBE i.e. overcome by events. As we saw in Phoenix Resurrection #5, Jean has already forgiven Scott for the affair, and they have already reconciled. Unless Scott's resurrection has undone that, that's how things presently stand between them.

Next up will be this obstacle that Zac Thompson has teased for Age of X-Man. We'll just have to see how that plays out.

As for how I would handle the situation were I working on the X-books, I already posted that about 20 or so pages back.

[Abbz_A]

I agree that the affair was a mistake and a "story that shouldn't have been told." IMO, it diminished and deconstructed Jott (a pillar of the X-mythos), and it severely damaged Scott's moral credibility, made him despicable rather than sympathetic, ignored two decades of character development, and broke him as a character. (For those of you interested in my views in expansive detail, please refer to the old, closed Cyclops Appreciation thread circa a year ago when Ulfhammer and I beat this subject to death and beyond.)

While, as a hardcore Jott shipper, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest if the affair was retconned out, I know it's not going to happen, and it doesn't need to. The affair is, as we say in my industry, OBE i.e. overcome by events. As we saw in Phoenix Resurrection #5, Jean has already forgiven Scott for the affair, and they have already reconciled. Unless Scott's resurrection has undone that, that's how things presently stand between them.

Next up will be this obstacle that Zac Thompson has teased for Age of X-Man. We'll just have to see how that plays out.

As for how I would handle the situation were I working on the X-books, I already posted that about 20 or so pages back.

But why does it damage Scott’s moral credibility? Wasn’t he taken advantage of ? He was suffering PTSD and wasn’t emotionally and mentally all there. So why is he to blame? I’m not saying he is blameless ... he shouldn’t have sought Emma’s therapy to begin with but what followed was Emma manipulation of a PTSDed Scott.

[Hizashi]

But why does it damage Scott’s moral credibility? Wasn’t he taken advantage of ? He was suffering PTSD and wasn’t emotionally and mentally all there. So why is he to blame? I’m not saying he is blameless ... he shouldn’t have sought Emma’s therapy to begin with but what followed was Emma manipulation of a PTSDed Scott.

Yeah, Scott’s not completely at fault, but he’s not blameless either. Emma knew she was playing with fire, but I doubt she knew exactly how badly Scott was doing - it started as a game for her to mess with Jean, IIRC. I wonder what rationale Morrison had for Scott’s behavior? He must’ve known what he was doing was wrong, even if he didn’t think it was the worst thing he could do.

[Abbz_A]

Yeah, Scott’s not completely at fault, but he’s not blameless either. Emma knew she was playing with fire, but I doubt she knew exactly how badly Scott was doing - it started as a game for her to mess with Jean, IIRC. I wonder what rationale Morrison had for Scott’s behavior? He must’ve known what he was doing was wrong, even if he didn’t think it was the worst thing he could do.

Right? The mind plays tricks when you are not stable. So the whole situation is very complicated... he didn’t cheat for the lols .. if the apocalypse thing didn’t happen I highly doubt Scott would have done what he did. So I really think what he did is excusable. Jean was also being selfish ... OOC too.

[FUBAR007]

But why does it damage Scott’s moral credibility? ... So why is he to blame?

IMO, because Scott is supposed to be a better, stronger man than Morrison portrayed him to be. Scott, properly portrayed, is Xavier's great success story: the insecure, withdrawn orphan who grew into a moral, stoic, and confident man, capable and respected leader, and devoted husband and father. Scott is supposed to be a symbol of hope and strength.

Morrison exploded all of that, regressing Scott to his self-loathing, neurotic Silver Age persona. Bob Layton did the same thing when he had Scott leave Madelyne and Nathan at the beginning of X-Factor. Louise Simonson spent years rebuilding Scott, and Morrison threw all of that away, reinventing Scott as a morally conflicted anti-hero who tries to be a better man than he is.

Wasn’t he taken advantage of ? He was suffering PTSD and wasn’t emotionally and mentally all there. I’m not saying he is blameless ... he shouldn’t have sought Emma’s therapy to begin with but what followed was Emma manipulation of a PTSDed Scott.

Scott was absolutely taken advantage of. But, as you say, he isn't blameless. Scott should've known better than to turn to Emma and play along with her seduction. Yet, he did it anyway.

No, Scott isn't exclusively to blame. IMO, Emma is the most culpable, followed by Scott and then Jean. (Jean's role is the weakest part of the whole affair storyline; Morrison never showed on-panel just WHY Jean wouldn't reestablish their psychic rapport and wouldn't reach out to Scott, leaving it to us the readers to infer an explanation.)

Once again, though, all of this is water under the bridge. As a plot point, the affair is a dead letter. Scott and Jean have already made up and reaffirmed their love for each other. What's left is for them to rebuild their relationship. That's the story I want to see. Some discussion of the affair should be just the start of that. A circular firing squad blame game would just come off as cheap and petty and, IMO, wouldn't be interesting anyway.

[Abbz_A]

IMO, because Scott is supposed to be a better, stronger man than Morrison portrayed him to be. Scott, properly portrayed, is Xavier's great success story: the insecure, withdrawn orphan who grew into a moral, stoic, and confident man, capable and respected leader, and devoted husband and father. Scott is supposed to be a symbol of hope and strength.

Morrison exploded all of that, regressing Scott to his self-loathing, neurotic Silver Age persona. Bob Layton did the same thing when he had Scott leave Madelyne and Nathan at the beginning of X-Factor. Louise Simonson spent years rebuilding Scott, and Morrison threw all of that away, reinventing Scott as a morally conflicted anti-hero who tries to be a better man than he is.

While I do agree that Scott is a confident, respected leader, devoted husband and father ... but ultimately he is only human. The possession really broke him which is doesn’t show weakness but it shows that every human has a breaking point ... same thing happened in X-Factor. While, I do agree these two writers did portray Scott poorly, I can’t help but think the possession really left Scott damaged. He wasn’t planning the affair viciously ... I mean I have seen people with untreated mental issues do things irrational and out of behaviour. It’s the reality of mental issues ... and Scott continued pushing himself until the very end.

Scott was absolutely taken advantage of. But, as you say, he isn't blameless. Scott should've known better than to turn to Emma and play along with her seduction. Yet, he did it anyway.

No, Scott isn't exclusively to blame. IMO, Emma is the most culpable, followed by Scott and then Jean. (Jean's role is the weakest part of the whole affair storyline; Morrison never showed on-panel just WHY Jean wouldn't reestablish their psychic rapport and wouldn't reach out to Scott, leaving it to us the readers to infer an explanation.)

Once again, though, all of this is water under the bridge. As a plot point, the affair is a dead letter. Scott and Jean have already made up and reaffirmed their love for each other. What's left is for them to rebuild their relationship. That's the story I want to see. Some discussion of the affair should be just the start of that. A circular firing squad blame game would just come off as cheap and petty and, IMO, wouldn't be interesting anyway.

I, too, don’t like the blame game. All three are guilty, and that’s what matter.
And I couldn’t agree more with your last paragraph, I just want to see them to rebuild their relationship and establish it once more. Even stronger than before ... I just hope Marvel delivers!

[lancer]

IMO, it diminished and deconstructed Jott (a pillar of the X-mythos), and it severely damaged Scott's moral credibility, made him despicable rather than sympathetic, ignored two decades of character development, and broke him as a character.
.

This is about as succinct an explanation of how I feel as you are going to find.

[juan678]

https://www.cbr.com/x-men-cyclops-je...ing-off-panel/

[nightw1ng]

https://www.cbr.com/x-men-cyclops-je...ing-off-panel/

I feel like I should turn in my Jott shipper card, because I never knew it took so many years before Scott & Jean were depicted as an official couple. I'm even more surprised their first on-panel kiss only finally happened in X-Men #98 in 1976.

[MarvelMaster616]

https://www.cbr.com/x-men-cyclops-je...ing-off-panel/

I feel like I should turn in my Jott shipper card, because I never knew it took so many years before Scott & Jean were depicted as an official couple. I'm even more surprised their first on-panel kiss only finally happened in X-Men #98 in 1976.

Good things are worth waiting for. Cyclops and Jean Grey are a testament to that.

[v_jeovanne]

I think Adams and Thomas mention that they live together as a couple, but Claremont erases it by having Jean share the apartment with Misty Knight.

[Havok83]

https://www.cbr.com/x-men-cyclops-je...ing-off-panel/

I feel like I should turn in my Jott shipper card, because I never knew it took so many years before Scott & Jean were depicted as an official couple. I'm even more surprised their first on-panel kiss only finally happened in X-Men #98 in 1976.

Same here. I thought it happened circa X-men 30ish

[lancer]

I think Adams and Thomas mention that they live together as a couple, but Claremont erases it by having Jean share the apartment with Misty Knight.

No, they didn't mention that. It's what the article shows, though. They are clearly a couple by Thomas/Adams. Havok, I believe what you are thinking of comes from UXM 138. A flashback to UXM 32, Bobby's birthday party, where they kiss. That didn't happen in the actual issue. However, there is a conversation that shows how they feel about each other. Same recurring thing as other issues. Thought balloons that show how they feel, unsure that the other shares those feelings.

First kiss they shared was UXM 94, Not 98. The article is wrong there. They kiss goodbye when Jean leaves the team and Scott stays. I don't know since this isn't news to me. I never said they were always together. I said for 40 year, when both alive, it was one of two things. They are together ow wanted to be and circumstances are keeping them apart. I think the early issues of UNCANNY fit the latter. From about issue 8 the reader periodically sees how they feel about each other. The circumstances are first Scott's insecurities about his eyes and being leader and Jean's concerns that he doesn't share those feelings. But those feelings are shown a bunch of times.