Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation

[JeanGreyForever]

Except for Cable. Maddie had a rough ride. She didn't handle it well but she wasn't dealt particularly good cards either. It wasn't her fault why she was created or what she was created for.

You're right that Maddie's presence is known through Cable, but the same can be said about Carol-Rogue, because of how intertwined they were at one point and how the popular rendition of Rogue comes from Carol, just as Psylocke's most popular incarnation comes from Revanche. But most people thinking of 90s Rogue don't think of Carol, just as most people who think of Psylocke, won't automatically think of how much they miss Revanche next. So that's what I meant.

Like I've said, I view Maddie as another Jean incarnation, so I was just ready for them to merge again. I don't really blame her for her actions really, because she basically learned she wasn't even real or her own person.

[Ulfhammer]

I was hoping you'd see this post actually just for your frank reaction to it.

I think I spoke the truth and since this is a matter very dear to me, I wanted to not hold back even a bit. I gets tiring to hear people denigrate Scott/Jean or Reed/Sue for being fuddy-duddies, when that is anything but the truth. They have no grasp of the couples and just dismiss them because they see them as Marvel's two oldest couples so clearly they must be stale and boring.

I've been bitter in life like anyone else, but I don't let that negatively affect how I view fiction. If anything, I want to see other couples prevail (real and fictional) so that the world has a little more happiness and joy, since heaven knows that we have been devoid of that lately.

Your a lioness on this topic no doubt but I'm glad you feel that way. Not a lot of people seem to anymore. We've all been burned at one time or another but how we let that change us is the true reflection of our strength of character. Maybe we'll see some of that play out in fiction before long too. I'm not keeping my hopes up too much though on that front. Marvel seems to have bought into the narrative that nothing good can last and long standing couples hold no attraction for the masses. How wrong they are.

We all yearn for unconditional love and acceptance, and when it's found with someone else we should hold tight. Our little caricatures on paper should reflect that but evidently in a fictional world where there's nearly constant loss, pain and death, our heroes are fine with non-commitment, casual relationships and one night stands.

[JeanGreyForever]

Your a lioness on this topic no doubt but I'm glad you feel that way. Not a lot of people seem to anymore. We've all been burned at one time or another but how we let that change us is the true reflection of our strength of character. Maybe we'll see some of that play out in fiction before long too. I'm not keeping my hopes up too much though on that front. Marvel seems to have bought into the narrative that nothing good can last and long standing couples hold no attraction for the masses. How wrong they are.

We all yearn for unconditional love and acceptance, and when it's found with someone else we should hold tight. Our little caricatures on paper should reflect that but evidently in a fictional world where there's nearly constant loss, pain and death, our heroes are fine with non-commitment, casual relationships and one night stands.

It may be a fictional world, but the characters are meant to feel non-fictional so that we human beings can link to them and truly feel as though they were real human beings. Some heroes should be fine with casual relationships and one-night stands, but that shouldn't be all of them, just like how in the real world, we get people with those same differing views on relationships.

And there are people in the real world too who have only ever been with one other person. They're a dying breed, but to be fair, they were always a rare breed anyway. It's just more obvious now than ever before.

[Ulfhammer]

It may be a fictional world, but the characters are meant to feel non-fictional so that we human beings can link to them and truly feel as though they were real human beings. Some heroes should be fine with casual relationships and one-night stands, but that shouldn't be all of them, just like how in the real world, we get people with those same differing views on relationships.

And there are people in the real world too who have only ever been with one other person. They're a dying breed, but to be fair, they were always a rare breed anyway. It's just more obvious now than ever before.

Yes, agreed. I didn't mean to say that long standing relationships are the only thing that should be presented, only that they shouldn't be excluded which seems to be the case generally in comics. With a wedding coming up this year than maybe that trend is reversing somewhat?

And the reality is that we probably know far more about Scott and Jean than we do about most of the people we work with or know casually so I guess it's working as intended. Now that I write that though I feel kind of weird about acknowledging it...

[JeanGreyForever]

Yes, agreed. I didn't mean to say that long standing relationships are the only thing that should be presented, only that they shouldn't be excluded which seems to be the case generally in comics. With a wedding coming up this year than maybe that trend is reversing somewhat?

And the reality is that we probably know far more about Scott and Jean than we do about most of the people we work with or know casually so I guess it's working as intended. Now that I write that though I feel kind of weird about acknowledging it...

Ah, understood now.

I don't have much trust in Marvel's weddings seeing what happened to not only Scott/Jean and Peter/MJ, but Black Bolt/Medusa, Hank/Janet, Wanda/Vision, Pietro/Crystal, Clint/Bobbi, Bruce/Betty, Ororo/T'Challa, and plenty more that I can't even think of right now. I'm sure Thor fits on this list as well, but I'm not sure which woman completes the pair. Sif, I think.

Huh, I never thought about it that way. I'm not surprised though, especially since I've always really connected to Jean. I used to think it was just the red hair, because Ariel was my favorite as a child (and still is now), but she really resonated with me as a character and reminded me of myself. Which is why my favorite characters tend to be like Jean or myself as well, such as Sue, Wanda, and Betsy.

[Ulfhammer]

Ah, understood now.

I don't have much trust in Marvel's weddings seeing what happened to not only Scott/Jean and Peter/MJ, but Black Bolt/Medusa, Hank/Janet, Wanda/Vision, Pietro/Crystal, Clint/Bobbi, Bruce/Betty, Ororo/T'Challa, and plenty more that I can't even think of right now. I'm sure Thor fits on this list as well, but I'm not sure which woman completes the pair. Sif, I think.

Huh, I never thought about it that way. I'm not surprised though, especially since I've always really connected to Jean. I used to think it was just the red hair, because Ariel was my favorite as a child (and still is now), but she really resonated with me as a character and reminded me of myself. Which is why my favorite characters tend to be like Jean or myself as well, such as Sue, Wanda, and Betsy.

Okay so maybe weddings aren't the answer. Still it's better than nothing so I'll take it. I wouldn't have been a Marvel fan this long if I was hard to entice. Hard to please yes, but a sucker for pitch I'm 99% sure won't end well but there's always that 1% chance. Just the fact that were chatting about this in the Jott forum tells me that we're suckers for a long shot given the state of the ship at the moment. A ship I'll remind you would have zero future if you were writing X-Books given that Scott's crossed the Rubicon according to your own standards. Sorry, more correctly put you'd be firing out retcons like there's no tomorrow. Ever thought about a career in writing cause we could use more than a few of those...

I can see the parallels between Jean and Ariel now that you mention it. Ariel's story is more than a touch less tragic but I get how their attitudes are similar. I find a lot of the same parallels between myself and Scott, though I'd like to think that I'm a little less OCD than he is. I'm probably not though. The reality is I get the guy. I understand why he's so driven and why he feels the weight of the world on his shoulders every minute of each day. I get why he seems boring and spend all his time planning for eventualities that will probably never happen. I understand why he struggles to take risks personally. I felt lucky as a kid to find a character I could identify with so profoundly. I think there are probably a lot of us around here who are here because of exactly that. We all saw something in these characters that resonates.

[JeanGreyForever]

Okay so maybe weddings aren't the answer. Still it's better than nothing so I'll take it. I wouldn't have been a Marvel fan this long if I was hard to entice. Hard to please yes, but a sucker for pitch I'm 99% sure won't end well but there's always that 1% chance. Just the fact that were chatting about this in the Jott forum tells me that we're suckers for a long shot given the state of the ship at the moment. A ship I'll remind you would have zero future if you were writing X-Books given that Scott's crossed the Rubicon according to your own standards. Sorry, more correctly put you'd be firing out retcons like there's no tomorrow. Ever thought about a career in writing cause we could use more than a few of those...

I can see the parallels between Jean and Ariel now that you mention it. Ariel's story is more than a touch less tragic but I get how their attitudes are similar. I find a lot of the same parallels between myself and Scott, though I'd like to think that I'm a little less OCD than he is. I'm probably not though. The reality is I get the guy. I understand why he's so driven and why he feels the weight of the world on his shoulders every minute of each day. I get why he seems boring and spend all his time planning for eventualities that will probably never happen. I understand why he struggles to take risks personally. I felt lucky as a kid to find a character I could identify with so profoundly. I think there are probably a lot of us around here who are here because of exactly that. We all saw something in these characters that resonates.

Yeah, I would definitely retcon away. Although I'd be tempted to retcon the past few decades away completely and not just Cyclops and go back to when Claremont left to finish off his many, many plotholes and subplots that deserved completion. There's a reason I'm a Claremont purist and can find gems in even his most rotten of works that he delivered during his comeback. I suppose he's a bit like the George Lucas of the X-Men. Essentially the creator who created everything we love about it, but also responsible for a comeback which did not go over very well with fans. I've thought about writing, but I don't think I would be very good.

Ariel's story is less tragic until you consider the original fairy tale and start to wish that Jean's life could only be Disneyfied like Ariel's was. At least end like how it did in Kitty's fairy tale anyway. I think in general, the characters we like most are the characters we can identify with the most, or in many cases, who we wish we could identify with and be more like.

[Ulfhammer]

Yeah, I would definitely retcon away. Although I'd be tempted to retcon the past few decades away completely and not just Cyclops and go back to when Claremont left to finish off his many, many plotholes and subplots that deserved completion. There's a reason I'm a Claremont purist and can find gems in even his most rotten of works that he delivered during his comeback. I suppose he's a bit like the George Lucas of the X-Men. Essentially the creator who created everything we love about it, but also responsible for a comeback which did not go over very well with fans. I've thought about writing, but I don't think I would be very good.

Ariel's story is less tragic until you consider the original fairy tale and start to wish that Jean's life could only be Disneyfied like Ariel's was. At least end like how it did in Kitty's fairy tale anyway. I think in general, the characters we like most are the characters we can identify with the most, or in many cases, who we wish we could identify with and be more like.

I understand the attraction to seeing the X-Men through the (relative) simplicity of Claremont's eyes. There were at their best, and most easily digested through his run. The George Lucas analogy is pretty apt, in more ways than just the ones you've described as well. They were both overly ambitious innovators, blazing trails that many would then follow. Of course as you said they spent the rest of their careers trying, but never quite succeeding at recapturing that magic. It's kind of a sad story from that point of view but as fans we've all benefited tremendously from their work. That said I don't overlook the massive help they had along the way. I think Claremont especially benefited from having an editor and co-conspirator like Louise Simonson along the way. A guy like that needs someone to ground him and keep him on track and I think she did that to a great extent while still letting him steer the ship. That's the impression I get from listening to them interact in interviews anyway.

As for your writing abilities I think you're selling yourself far short of the mark. You've likely already written the equivalent of several novels in your 1700 odd posts. How the heck? Weren't you at about 1400 a few days ago? Anyway my point is that clearly you have no problem expressing yourself in written form and you do so with passion and conviction. You're a subject matter expert who maintains a broad and deep level of knowledge on what you choose to write about. Finally like all good authors you're deeply opinionated and unapologetic. If you enjoy this kind of writing and that's as far as you're interested in going that's fine but I've been inspired recently not to let misinformation go unchallenged.

[JeanGreyForever]

I understand the attraction to seeing the X-Men through the (relative) simplicity of Claremont's eyes. There were at their best, and most easily digested through his run. The George Lucas analogy is pretty apt, in more ways than just the ones you've described as well. They were both overly ambitious innovators, blazing trails that many would then follow. Of course as you said they spent the rest of their careers trying, but never quite succeeding at recapturing that magic. It's kind of a sad story from that point of view but as fans we've all benefited tremendously from their work. That said I don't overlook the massive help they had along the way. I think Claremont especially benefited from having an editor and co-conspirator like Louise Simonson along the way. A guy like that needs someone to ground him and keep him on track and I think she did that to a great extent while still letting him steer the ship. That's the impression I get from listening to them interact in interviews anyway.

As for your writing abilities I think you're selling yourself far short of the mark. You've likely already written the equivalent of several novels in your 1700 odd posts. How the heck? Weren't you at about 1400 a few days ago? Anyway my point is that clearly you have no problem expressing yourself in written form and you do so with passion and conviction. You're a subject matter expert who maintains a broad and deep level of knowledge on what you choose to write about. Finally like all good authors you're deeply opinionated and unapologetic. If you enjoy this kind of writing and that's as far as you're interested in going that's fine but I've been inspired recently not to let misinformation go unchallenged.

Oh yes, you're very right about the Lucas and Claremont comparisons. And I agree, that Claremont was at his best when he was steered around, especially by Wheezie, since he very much needed that moderating. From what I remember about Lucas, he was much the same way, with the original Star Wars trilogy also extremely edited and worked on by multiple eyes other than just his, unlike the prequel trilogy.

I don't really pay attention to post count, so I'm not sure. I guess I have been posting a lot lately. Hahaha, I wish writing novels could be as easy as these posts, let alone writing one novel. Thank you very much for your words of encouragement, especially since you put a good spin on being opinionated and apologetic. They mean a lot and are eloquently written themselves, so I'd argue that you too could likely pursue a career in writing. Your writing is always restrained, but not to a fault, instead bearing a diplomatic manner that does not offend even those seeking to be offended. On top of that, you clearly see the large picture, while not forgetting the small details that are equally as important in constructing the picture and adding depth, of which you masterfully can convey to others. You have an intrinsic grasp of the material which is aided by your everlasting optimism, which I think may be one of the most important qualities yet since the world (and especially this internet forum) seems to be especially in want of it. That's a nice inspiration and something I fervently believe myself, since most of my posts are about putting an end to the misinformation and fake news that seem to plague this place, especially involving a certain someone.

[Lokimaru]

You're right that Maddie's presence is known through Cable, but the same can be said about Carol-Rogue, because of how intertwined they were at one point and how the popular rendition of Rogue comes from Carol, just as Psylocke's most popular incarnation comes from Revanche. But most people thinking of 90s Rogue don't think of Carol, just as most people who think of Psylocke, won't automatically think of how much they miss Revanche next. So that's what I meant.

Like I've said, I view Maddie as another Jean incarnation, so I was just ready for them to merge again. I don't really blame her for her actions really, because she basically learned she wasn't even real or her own person.

My beef with Maddie is that instead of becoming her own person she just pretended to whilst still following her programming by hooking up with the next Summers in line proving that she was just a bioroid out to collect Summer's juice. Who hooks up with there Ex's Brother? That's just... NO! And Havok never gets called out on that ether which is bullshit.

[JeanGreyForever]

My beef with Maddie is that instead of becoming her own person she just pretended to whilst still following her programming by hooking up with the next Summers in line proving that she was just a bioroid out to collect Summer's juice. Who hooks up with there Ex's Brother? That's just... NO! And Havok never gets called out on that ether which is bullshit.

I think she did that more out of spite for Scott. That and because Alex was showing affection towards her because he felt she was alone and needed someone, so that closeness became more and more intimate, especially since both had felt abandoned and could bond on that. I actually think it's pretty realistic and super common to see in the real world, although whether or not that makes it right is another thing altogether.

I never really took it as Maddie continuing to fulfill her programming, especially since Sinister had no interest in Alex's DNA, but that's a really interesting take on it that you have, and it makes me look at her relationship with Alex now in a new light.

[Ulfhammer]

Oh yes, you're very right about the Lucas and Claremont comparisons. And I agree, that Claremont was at his best when he was steered around, especially by Wheezie, since he very much needed that moderating. From what I remember about Lucas, he was much the same way, with the original Star Wars trilogy also extremely edited and worked on by multiple eyes other than just his, unlike the prequel trilogy.

I don't really pay attention to post count, so I'm not sure. I guess I have been posting a lot lately. Hahaha, I wish writing novels could be as easy as these posts, let alone writing one novel. Thank you very much for your words of encouragement, especially since you put a good spin on being opinionated and apologetic. They mean a lot and are eloquently written themselves, so I'd argue that you too could likely pursue a career in writing. Your writing is always restrained, but not to a fault, instead bearing a diplomatic manner that does not offend even those seeking to be offended. On top of that, you clearly see the large picture, while not forgetting the small details that are equally as important in constructing the picture and adding depth, of which you masterfully can convey to others. You have an intrinsic grasp of the material which is aided by your everlasting optimism, which I think may be one of the most important qualities yet since the world (and especially this internet forum) seems to be especially in want of it. That's a nice inspiration and something I fervently believe myself, since most of my posts are about putting an end to the misinformation and fake news that seem to plague this place, especially involving a certain someone.

Yes, writing novels is not as easy as this but many elements are similar such as constructing a convincing narrative and supporting it with the right amount of detail to get your point across. I've come to appreciate being opinionated and unapologetic from my mother who wins all the awards there but I find it's a relatively common trait among good authors as well.

Thanks for the kinds words. My terribly boring day job writing business communications and proposals is partly responsible for some of my more diplomatic spin but I also find that my opinions are better served when the audience is willing to keep it's ears open. Of course I've had far more luck convincing senior executives to hear me out than I have trying to change anyone's opinions around her about much, but that's to be expected. The worst are incapable of understanding and the best are too stubborn .

Also since we're in the Jott forum and I don't need a rehash of our last twenty posts getting deleted I'll just say, I love Jott.

[bell]

true love is boring but lust is interesting.... it is interested for a few seconds but after you miss true love and want it

for me jott is true love

[v_jeovanne]

but fox has not giving jott that much attention or bother to give us the same dynamic Jean and Scott had in the comics the same as in the movie.
x men apocalypse to be honest I didn't feel there was anything with Jean and Scott. It was mostly about mystique and how she is a hero.

To have a movie that the main ones are the original 5 x men as kids and how they develop just change some stuff might be good well for me. Their mentor professor X helping them teaching them might not be so bad. I would also like it if they establish Cyke and Jean relationship and maybe they get marry. I forgot if they where married in fox movies.

Maybe without Singer and without Lauren Shuler Donner we can see a different adaptation. It was Donner's idea that everything was focused on Logan and the variants in the script do not change much.
WXM98_074.jpg

[Ulfhammer]

true love is boring but lust is interesting.... it is interested for a few seconds but after you miss true love and want it

for me jott is true love

True love is a boring as you make it. Just because you're with one person doesn't mean you can't generate a little excitment. It just takes more work.