Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation

[Ulfhammer]

Rachel was not born in 616, so Is up to the writer if they want to change it or not. but yeah Emma and Scott shippers and the ones who ship Jean and Logan think this yuck

I get that she'd not from the 616 but you really think she'd spend the last 30 years of publication lying about who her father is? I have a hard time believing anyone is hoping this is the case. She's very clearly identified Scott as her Dad in the past so the only option left is that she was lying about it the whole time.

[Cyke is Slim]

I believe Claremont once said he originally planned to make Rachel solely the product of Jean Grey and the Phoenix. But at no point did he or anybody hint that she was linked to Wolverine. Rachel is Scott's daughter but you know certain fans never let cold hard facts get in the way of their outrage. And I'm glad that there was a moment between these in the X-men Gold and in the latest Mojo arc. More family moments, less crappy theories.

[FUBAR007]

I've heard this thrown around before. Is there some concern whether Rachel knows who her father is or not? She seems to be pretty sure since she entered publication back in the 80's.

There's a popular fan theory, particularly among Jott anti-shippers, that Rachel is Logan's daughter, not Scott's. It stems from a scene in Days of Future Present, specifically Uncanny X-Men Annual #14, where Sue Storm and Scott are turned into Hounds by Ahab. Sue is able to sense and track Franklin while Scott can't sense or track Rachel.

During a Jay and Miles Explain the X-Men podcast recorded within the last couple of years, Claremont revealed this was a hint of his intent to reveal that Rachel was the child of Jean and the Phoenix Force. That is, the Phoenix impregnated Jean, and Scott, like Joseph in the Christian gospels, was just a stepfather. This was one element of his project post-1986 to deconstruct and retcon away as much of Jott as possible.

After Claremont quit, Harras and his writers ignored this completely and went forward with Rachel as Scott's daughter. That hasn't stopped certain segments of the fanbase, particularly Jott anti-shippers and Jean/Logan shippers, to adopt some variation of Claremont's idea as headcanon.

Canonically, Rachel is still the daughter of the Scott and Jean of her timeline.

[Hizashi]

I believe Claremont once said he originally planned to make Rachel solely the product of Jean Grey and the Phoenix. But at no point did he or anybody hint that she was linked to Wolverine. Rachel is Scott's daughter but you know certain fans never let cold hard facts get in the way of their outrage. And I'm glad that there was a moment between these in the X-men Gold and in the latest Mojo arc. More family moments, less crappy theories.

Jean and Phoenix? Really? I thought the theory was Rachel was the product of Scott and Phoenix? I mean, if Phoenix and Jean are one and the same, how does Rachel...? I think I’ll stick to Scott and Jean with this one.

[lurkerforyears]

Jean and Phoenix? Really? I thought the theory was Rachel was the product of Scott and Phoenix? I mean, if Phoenix and Jean are one and the same, how does Rachel...? I think I’ll stick to Scott and Jean with this one.

think of the Holy Spirit and Mary. That would be like Jean and the Phoenix.

[FUBAR007]

Rogue fan here who also read that title all the way through. I find it hard to believe that was Claremont's initial vision of X-Men (second run) before he was pulled off the team.

The story in that annual was a compressed version of his original vision. His original vision was a drawn out story arc wherein Wolverine would appear to die in battle, and The Hand would then take his body and turn him into their master assassin like they did Psylocke. At some point, there'd be a fight between him and the X-Men after which Jean would go undercover to save him. In the process, she would develop a psychic bond with Logan an order of magnitude stronger and more intense than the one she shared with Scott. Once the story was over and Logan was back with the X-Men, Jean would then dump Scott for Logan.

Part of Claremont's intent with this was that it'd serve as Scott's karmic comeuppance for walking out on Madelyne and Nathan in X-Factor #1.

In recent years, he's added on to his Jean/Logan idea, envisioning Jean (as the Phoenix) and Logan reuniting at the end of the universe, having sex, and in so doing spark a new Big Bang (pun intended), creating the next iteration of the universe.

Claremont is a die-hard Scott/Madelyne shipper, and he really, really, really hates Jott.

[Ulfhammer]

There's a popular fan theory, particularly among Jott anti-shippers, that Rachel is Logan's daughter, not Scott's. It stems from a scene in Days of Future Present, specifically Uncanny X-Men Annual #14, where Sue Storm and Scott are turned into Hounds by Ahab. Sue is able to sense and track Franklin while Scott can't sense or track Rachel.

During a Jay and Miles Explain the X-Men podcast recorded within the last couple of years, Claremont revealed this was a hint of his intent to reveal that Rachel was the child of Jean and the Phoenix Force. That is, the Phoenix impregnated Jean, and Scott, like Joseph in the Christian gospels, was just a stepfather. This was one element of his project post-1986 to deconstruct and retcon away as much of Jott as possible.

After Claremont quit, Harras and his writers ignored this completely and went forward with Rachel as Scott's daughter. That hasn't stopped certain segments of the fanbase, particularly Jott anti-shippers and Jean/Logan shippers, to adopt some variation of Claremont's idea as headcanon.

Canonically, Rachel is still the daughter of the Scott and Jean of her timeline.

Great explanation. Thanks. I'm not surprised this comes from Claremont getting his jimmies in a bunch about the DPS retcon. The guy has really lost some perspective on this whole issue in my mind. He last chat with Jay & Miles at NYCC shows his attitude on the matter has not corrected with time. As much as I respect his body of work, I'm glad he's not steering the ship today.

[Ulfhammer]

The story in that annual was a compressed version of his original vision. His original vision was a drawn out story arc wherein Wolverine would appear to die in battle, and The Hand would then take his body and turn him into their master assassin like they did Psylocke. At some point, there'd be a fight between him and the X-Men after which Jean would go undercover to save him. In the process, she would develop a psychic bond with Logan an order of magnitude stronger and more intense than the one she shared with Scott. Once the story was over and Logan was back with the X-Men, Jean would then dump Scott for Logan.

Part of Claremont's intent with this was that it'd serve as Scott's karmic comeuppance for walking out on Madelyne and Nathan in X-Factor #1.

In recent years, he's added on to his Jean/Logan idea, envisioning Jean (as the Phoenix) and Logan reuniting at the end of the universe, having sex, and in so doing spark a new Big Bang (pun intended), creating the next iteration of the universe.

Claremont is a die-hard Scott/Madelyne shipper, and he really, really, really hates Jott.

I think it's more like he really, really didn't like be left out in the cold on the DPS retcon. He's said himself that he felt it destroyed Cyclops as a heroic character and by gum, if the retcon didn't do it, Claremont will himself.

It's not Scott's fault that Shooter overruled and end ran Claremont. Sometimes I think at the end of the day, Claremont is no different than a lot of other fans here, taking the characters actions as a true indication of intent when it was clearly editorial mandate. The only difference is Claremont knew 100% that is was editorial mandate long before this story became public knowledge.

[FUBAR007]

Great explanation. Thanks. I'm not surprised this comes from Claremont getting his jimmies in a bunch about the DPS retcon. The guy has really lost some perspective on this whole issue in my mind. He last chat with Jay & Miles at NYCC shows his attitude on the matter has not corrected with time.

I just wish he'd let it go. Perhaps Marvel should just let him write his big Jean/Logan idea as a What If special or mini-series to get it out of his system. At least that way, we might get a decent story out of it.

As much as I respect his body of work, I'm glad he's not steering the ship today.

Despite his dismantling of Jott in it, I actually enjoyed his X-Men Forever. Particularly for its portrayal of Scott. For the first time since Morrison's run, I got to see the Cyclops I grew up reading about. That said, it was clear to me when the second series was canceled that Claremont was mostly out of new X-Men ideas. He'd had 40+ issues, and most of it was just straightforward superhero stuff. Perfectly serviceable, but nothing like the scope and depth of his original Uncanny run.

[v_jeovanne]

There's a popular fan theory, particularly among Jott anti-shippers, that Rachel is Logan's daughter, not Scott's. It stems from a scene in Days of Future Present, specifically Uncanny X-Men Annual #14, where Sue Storm and Scott are turned into Hounds by Ahab. Sue is able to sense and track Franklin while Scott can't sense or track Rachel.

During a Jay and Miles Explain the X-Men podcast recorded within the last couple of years, Claremont revealed this was a hint of his intent to reveal that Rachel was the child of Jean and the Phoenix Force. That is, the Phoenix impregnated Jean, and Scott, like Joseph in the Christian gospels, was just a stepfather. This was one element of his project post-1986 to deconstruct and retcon away as much of Jott as possible.

After Claremont quit, Harras and his writers ignored this completely and went forward with Rachel as Scott's daughter. That hasn't stopped certain segments of the fanbase, particularly Jott anti-shippers and Jean/Logan shippers, to adopt some variation of Claremont's idea as headcanon.

Canonically, Rachel is still the daughter of the Scott and Jean of her timeline.

in some issues of Cable, it is confirmed that Rachel is the daughter of Scott and Jean, according to what I remember, only a mutant Summers-Grey could remain in a reality to which she did not belong.

[GarDian]

I just wish he'd let it go. Perhaps Marvel should just let him write his big Jean/Logan idea as a What If special or mini-series to get it out of his system. At least that way, we might get a decent story out of it.

I think I've already read this one, albeit not by CC. What if AvX seemed like a Jean/Logan fanfic.

[Hizashi]

I just wish he'd let it go. Perhaps Marvel should just let him write his big Jean/Logan idea as a What If special or mini-series to get it out of his system. At least that way, we might get a decent story out of it.

I can’t help but feel like his motivation would greatly hurt the quality of any book he were to write today, especially a Jean/Logan book.

[Dethi]

I think I've already read this one, albeit not by CC. What if AvX seemed like a Jean/Logan fanfic.

What if AvX was a the beginning way better than the original, the character was less stupid but it end up as a Jogan shitty fanfic yup. But CC already had write his big Jean/Logan idea in X-Men Forever and it was pure crap.

But since the reason why he is pushing them together like that is stupid as hell (well the reason isn't but the way he is protesting about it is bad), I find it normal that it was bad.

[bell]

Just because Claremont ship Scott with his creation doesn't mean he has to hate on jott just because that. Makes Jean and Scott look like fools

[GarDian]

What if AvX was a the beginning way better than the original, the character was less stupid but it end up as a Jogan shitty fanfic yup. But CC already had write his big Jean/Logan idea in X-Men Forever and it was pure crap.

But since the reason why he is pushing them together like that is stupid as hell (well the reason isn't but the way he is protesting about it is bad), I find it normal that it was bad.

That's true. I think I enjoyed it until about issue 2 or 3. Then it was WTF. One Jogan story is enough. Time to let Jogan die. The man is old enough to be her grandfather.