Which Phoenix/Phoenix Force will Jean Grey be dealing with?

[rutog98]

Are you joking? She handled it just fine in Morrison's run. No Hellfire Club to muck around with her mind. Where did she go crazy there? In fact she understood the purpose of being Phoenix more than any other past Phoenix. By the end she had ascended to the White Phoenix of the Crown, fully aware of her duties.

During Morrison's run, her powers were only cosmic for about one issue (when she and Logan were about to be incinerated by the sun) and then they spiked down when she came to Earth. Xorn would not have been able to end her with a global EMP if she had been at her cosmic power levels. Phoenix Force Jean's power level always bounced around like that from cosmic to far less than that. The other time we saw her powers back at cosmic levels is when she died and became the White Phoenix of the Crown. I stand by my statement that she has never been able to wield the cosmic power levels for long without going crazy while she was alive.

Morrison touched on continuity but also expanded on it. He established that ascending to a Phoenix is a state of higher consciousness. We see the dark speech bubbles coming from Jean throughout various points of the run. Jean asks, are these words from the future? In Here Comes Tomorrow, when future Jean as the White Phoenix of the Crown says "Live, Scott, Live," so does the dying Jean in her phoenix voice.

He also established that Jean's blood is phoenix blood. It's in her very genes to wield that power, which is why Sublime was able to wield it when it injected himself with her blood. Also why her children are able to wield that power.

You are oversimplyfing what Morrison established. The Phoenix Force thing was more than just an ascention to a higher consciousness. A person reached that higher level because of the possession. Also, of course it was in Jean's blood/genes to be able to wield the PF. That would be true of all potential Phoenix hosts at that time. Thing is, AvX comes along and messes that up because now everybody would have that same gene in their blood as the Phoenix Force can now possess anyone.

Technically, Jean never went crazy from the Phoenix force. Only the original Dark Phoenix was a duplicate of Jean Grey, driven mad by Mastermind's manipulations.

Actually, she did. The Phoenix Force did more than just create a duplicate body of Jean Grey. It also duplicated her memory and personality. In other words, it behaved exactly as Jean would have under those same circumstances if it had simply possessed her.

To be fair to Jean, had Xavier not delayed the development of her powers, as a more experienced telepath she would have seen through Mastermind's deceptions and never would have fallen pray to his machinations and ultimately become Dark Phoenix.

Notice how Jean as an experienced telepath/telekinetic handle the Phoenix power just fine during the Morrison run. Overall even in the original run she saved the universe. She saved the universe again during the Morrison run, and save the world on more than one occasion as well. She was the most powerful host as more Phoenix hosts can't get to that level. Look at the P5? They never left Earth before losing their connection to the Phoenix, and were not able to break Wanda's spell.

Problem is, everytime the specter of the Phoenix Force being restored to Jean Grey in the X-Men books, people got scared. There was always doubt as to whether or not she could handle the power. They weren't all like, "Hey, you know, Mastermind isn't around anymore, so if the PF possesses you, everything will be kosher!"

[Bart]

I took the blood thing to mean, that those with phoenix blood can potentially become phoenix and access it of their own accord and without burning out. The phoenix 5 and other instances have involved some sort of out of the normal circumstance like the force being split up, and messed with somehow.

[NewCanaanite]

During Morrison's run, her powers were only cosmic for about one issue (when she and Logan were about to be incinerated by the sun) and then they spiked down when she came to Earth. Xorn would not have been able to end her with a global EMP if she had been at her cosmic power levels. Phoenix Force Jean's power level always bounced around like that from cosmic to far less than that. The other time we saw her powers back at cosmic levels is when she died and became the White Phoenix of the Crown. I stand by my statement that she has never been able to wield the cosmic power levels for long without going crazy while she was alive.

This is the thing that confuses me the most about Morrison's run. I don't get why the Phoenix would give her cosmic level powers and then scale them back when she goes to fight Xorn.

[Bart]

This is the thing that confuses me the most about Morrison's run. I don't get why the Phoenix would give her cosmic level powers and then scale them back when she goes to fight Xorn.

I dont think it was scaled back per se. She showed compassion towards Xorneto which was her mistake. The reason she died was because she let her guard down, not because she couldn't take him one on one. Jean as Phoenix is powerful, but she's still in a human body, which is why she was able to kill herself with the Shiar weapon in the original Dark Phoenix Saga.

[ZNOP]

I dont think it was scaled back per se. She showed compassion towards Xorneto which was her mistake. The reason she died was because she let her guard down, not because she couldn't take him one on one. Jean as Phoenix is powerful, but she's still in a human body, which is why she was able to kill herself with the Shiar weapon in the original Dark Phoenix Saga.

The complete and awesome truth...

[NewCanaanite]

I dont think it was scaled back per se. She showed compassion towards Xorneto which was her mistake. The reason she died was because she let her guard down, not because she couldn't take him one on one. Jean as Phoenix is powerful, but she's still in a human body, which is why she was able to kill herself with the Shiar weapon in the original Dark Phoenix Saga.

Good point.

Does anyone know if they ever mentioned why exactly the Phoenix took Rachel as a host in the first place?

[DDM]

Good point.

Does anyone know if they ever mentioned why exactly the Phoenix took Rachel as a host in the first place?

Because she's it's daughter.

[rutog98]

This is the thing that confuses me the most about Morrison's run. I don't get why the Phoenix would give her cosmic level powers and then scale them back when she goes to fight Xorn.

It happened because when Magneto is a villain, Marvel obviously has a policy that any character more powerful than him has their power levels adjusted downward whenever they face him in battle to prop him up to look tough. Its called PIS (Plot Induced Stupidity) and WIS (Writer Induced Stupidity).

I dont think it was scaled back per se. She showed compassion towards Xorneto which was her mistake. The reason she died was because she let her guard down, not because she couldn't take him one on one. Jean as Phoenix is powerful, but she's still in a human body, which is why she was able to kill herself with the Shiar weapon in the original Dark Phoenix Saga.

Here's the thing, the sun has an EM field a trillion times stronger than the Earth's own planetary EM field. The Phoenix Force even feeds on stars. The attack Xorn used on Phoenix Force Jean Grey should not have worked under any circumstances as that kind of power should not have been able to hurt her. Its nowhere near strong enough to even scratch her back.

In the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Saga, Phoenix Force Jean Grey had the ability to restrain and cut itself off of part of the Phoenix's power. Read Uncanny X-Men #125. Also, when Dark Phoenix killed itself on the moon, remember, she was not at full power. It had just broken free of the restraints Xavier put in Phoenix Force Jean Grey's head to restrict the amount of Phoenix's powers she could access. She still needed time before she could get up to full power and killed herself before she did. However, even if she were at full power, we know from Uncanny 125 that she can block off some of the power from herself if she wants to. Either way, she did not do this to herself to make herself vulnerable to an attack from Xorn. It was nowhere in the text and it would have made no sense for her to pull something like that. In other words, she was just written down here.

[Phoenixx9]

Exactly, rutog.

I think Quesada wanted Jean D-E-A-D under any circumstances and that stupid story retcon involving Xorn was written. Even caught off guard, it should not have done much to Jean. And with her TP at Phoenix levels, Jean would have known what Xorneto was going to do. Just plain bad, lazy writing.

[NewCanaanite]

Because she's it's daughter.

No, she's Jean Grey's daughter.

[WallStreeter]

Actually, she did. The Phoenix Force did more than just create a duplicate body of Jean Grey. It also duplicated her memory and personality. In other words, it behaved exactly as Jean would have under those same circumstances if it had simply possessed her.



Problem is, everytime the specter of the Phoenix Force being restored to Jean Grey in the X-Men books, people got scared. There was always doubt as to whether or not she could handle the power. They weren't all like, "Hey, you know, Mastermind isn't around anymore, so if the PF possesses you, everything will be kosher!"

The Phoenix did even more than it. When it appeared to Jean, it was her choice to accept the gift. In the back up issues in Classic X-Men and in Inferno, Jean's soul was halved. Half of her soul remained in her original body, which was in the cocoon, and half of her soul went into the new body. So half of Jean Grey's soul, a genetically identical body, and the same memories and personality. It was her. Jean Grey later took that part of her soul that was the Phoenix and became the Phoenix herself. So there's no difference. Which means you're right.

People got scared because of what happened when Jean became Dark Phoenix. Even whenever as plain Jean Grey she did a major power feat or just got angry, people would get scared. With that said she did not lose control during the Morrison run.

[WallStreeter]

It happened because when Magneto is a villain, Marvel obviously has a policy that any character more powerful than him has their power levels adjusted downward whenever they face him in battle to prop him up to look tough. Its called PIS (Plot Induced Stupidity) and WIS (Writer Induced Stupidity).



Here's the thing, the sun has an EM field a trillion times stronger than the Earth's own planetary EM field. The Phoenix Force even feeds on stars. The attack Xorn used on Phoenix Force Jean Grey should not have worked under any circumstances as that kind of power should not have been able to hurt her. Its nowhere near strong enough to even scratch her back.

In the Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Saga, Phoenix Force Jean Grey had the ability to restrain and cut itself off of part of the Phoenix's power. Read Uncanny X-Men #125. Also, when Dark Phoenix killed itself on the moon, remember, she was not at full power. It had just broken free of the restraints Xavier put in Phoenix Force Jean Grey's head to restrict the amount of Phoenix's powers she could access. She still needed time before she could get up to full power and killed herself before she did. However, even if she were at full power, we know from Uncanny 125 that she can block off some of the power from herself if she wants to. Either way, she did not do this to herself to make herself vulnerable to an attack from Xorn. It was nowhere in the text and it would have made no sense for her to pull something like that. In other words, she was just written down here.

Agreed. Plus the Phoenix resurrected her after Logan stabbed her. And there's no way puny little Xorn should have affected someone who was just in the sun. She was written down here.

[WallStreeter]

Exactly, rutog.

I think Quesada wanted Jean D-E-A-D under any circumstances and that stupid story retcon involving Xorn was written. Even caught off guard, it should not have done much to Jean. And with her TP at Phoenix levels, Jean would have known what Xorneto was going to do. Just plain bad, lazy writing.

Quesada wanted Jean permanently dead and did not want her to ever appear again, period. He stayed she never should have come back when she died on the moon. He even wanted to attack the Phoenix to other people. Fortunately for us, Jean is the Phoenix and always finds a way to come back, so a lame editor in chief is nothing to her.
LOL

Bendis was able to convince editorial to let him bring the o5 to the future (his way of resurrecting things). Fox has decided to do a real Dark Phoenix movie, and Quesada is no longer the EIC. Re: the Dark Phoenix film, since Jean has been killed off before in the movies, this time I think they'll not kill her off, or they'll have her resurrect in the end. They got a rising star, Sophie Turner to play Jean, and you don't do this with a character you want to throw away. So praise Fox and Sophie herself for being a part of Jean's resurrection, and we will finally get to see Jeen meet Jean.

[NewCanaanite]

Agreed. Plus the Phoenix resurrected her after Logan stabbed her. And there's no way puny little Xorn should have affected someone who was just in the sun. She was written down here.

Another thing that bugs me about Morrison's run is that it never seemed like he really was going anywhere with the Phoenix arc. There's just some vague dialogue about the Phoenix coming back to Jean to pass judgment over Earth, and then it just lets Xorn kill her. I hate AvX, but at least in that arc, I understand exactly what the Phoenix is trying to accomplish.

[WallStreeter]

Another thing that bugs me about Morrison's run is that it never seemed like he really was going anywhere with the Phoenix arc. There's just some vague dialogue about the Phoenix coming back to Jean to pass judgment over Earth, and then it just lets Xorn kill her. I hate AvX, but at least in that arc, I understand exactly what the Phoenix is trying to accomplish.

And in that arc (AvX) the Phoenix accomplished it's mission.