Some help understanding Secret Wars (2015)?

[JKtheMac]

Thanks all for the responses, it did help add some clarity! Still seeing the point #2 as quite a difficult stretch but, I guess it is what it is : )

Thanks!

Some of us are just a little obsessed with Secret Wars. The afore mentioned thread has over 500 posts. Feel free to resurrect it to discuss the event, because you will always get responses.

[strathcona]

My question would be, were any of the characters we saw on Battleworld the 616 version of the character, with their minds altered like all the others to think they'd been on Battleworld all along? Besides the obvious raft survivors and others who made their way there as part of the story. Or can any others be attributed to other alternate realities we are already familiar with, like the original Squadron Supreme or the Supreme Power version, Maestro or Old Man Logan?

[jackolover]

My question would be, were any of the characters we saw on Battleworld the 616 version of the character, with their minds altered like all the others to think they'd been on Battleworld all along? Besides the obvious raft survivors and others who made their way there as part of the story. Or can any others be attributed to other alternate realities we are already familiar with, like the original Squadron Supreme or the Supreme Power version, Maestro or Old Man Logan?

Some domains are confusing, so they look like 616 and their characters, so that answer is unknown. But certainly alternate reality characters were prominent on Battleworld.

The psychological component to reconciling so many 616 variant characters in such a squeezed in location like Battleworld, I don't think has been examined before though. Just thinking about the proximity of each domain on Battleworld being within miles of each other, and the chance of encountering yourself multiple times, would have been mind boggling.

[jackolover]

My own question involves the ending of Secret Wars. God Doom was defeated. There was an interim period when the domains were all about to take a step to either return to what the 616 used to be, or, the multiverse. Sue, Valeria and Franklin were Dooms family, but God Doom was without power now, because the Molecule Man transferred that power to Reed Richards.

Okay, who was the Sue, Val, and Franky at the end, who were interacting with God Reed? Were they Dooms family? If not, then what did God Reed do with Dooms family? Because the Franklin who asked his dad (Reed) "could we become super heroes again", was Reeds family, and they died in the start of Secret Wars when the Raft ripped apart and Sue and the kids were destroyed. So, did God Reed kill Dooms Sue and kids, and return to life his family? Or, did God Reed mind alter Dooms family to be his family? Unanswered questions.

On one level it was icky that Doom aspired to have Reeds family. On another level, it would be icky if Reed aspired to take Dooms family, no?

[Iron Maiden]

My own question involves the ending of Secret Wars. God Doom was defeated. There was an interim period when the domains were all about to take a step to either return to what the 616 used to be, or, the multiverse. Sue, Valeria and Franklin were Dooms family, but God Doom was without power now, because the Molecule Man transferred that power to Reed Richards.

Okay, who was the Sue, Val, and Franky at the end, who were interacting with God Reed? Were they Dooms family? If not, then what did God Reed do with Dooms family? Because the Franklin who asked his dad (Reed) "could we become super heroes again", was Reeds family, and they died in the start of Secret Wars when the Raft ripped apart and Sue and the kids were destroyed. So, did God Reed kill Dooms Sue and kids, and return to life his family? Or, did God Reed mind alter Dooms family to be his family? Unanswered questions.

On one level it was icky that Doom aspired to have Reeds family. On another level, it would be icky if Reed aspired to take Dooms family, no?

I think the answer is much simpler. After Reed was able to gain the Molecule Man's approval to use the powers that Doom was tapping into, Reed seems to have written everything out of his rebuild of the multiverses. Brevoort has stated that Earth is no longer a 616 number (which I always thought was dumb anyway and so did Brevoort) and is Earth Prime. I'm still not sure what exactly T'Challa's role in all of it was because when he used the Time Gem (even Brevoort and Hickman waffle on which gem though) , everything proceeded from the point before Black Swan showed up to start the first incursion we saw in New Avengers. Mind you, that's the first one we readers saw because by that time Doom had already begun the process some time before that. IIRC he spent about 20 years in the past doing the multiple killings of the Molecule Men dispersed throughout the Multiverses.

As for Doom's family, the slice in time when they existed has been erased. That Earth's Sue probably didn't see her father die and they may have continued on as if the final incursion didn't happen for them.

[JKtheMac]

Some domains are confusing, so they look like 616 and their characters, so that answer is unknown. But certainly alternate reality characters were prominent on Battleworld.

The psychological component to reconciling so many 616 variant characters in such a squeezed in location like Battleworld, I don't think has been examined before though. Just thinking about the proximity of each domain on Battleworld being within miles of each other, and the chance of encountering yourself multiple times, would have been mind boggling.

Yes the biggest issue here was Bendis' book. He was clearly writing what he considered to be an odd combination of 616 and 1610 characters, the idea presumably being that the two New York's were both from the final incursion but perhaps put back together after their mutual destruction. The problem was it wasn't very consistent with the other books so it ends up feeling like a weird alternative reality.

The original idea was that the incursion zones were being saved from destruction by Doom at the last moment, so in theory each universe represented only has one zone on Battleword. For the 616 that gets a little confused because there are mentions of other areas with domes, and the dome idea is straight out of the first Secret Wars event. One issue was that Hickman was way too busy to help the editors keep everything straight.

[JKtheMac]

My own question involves the ending of Secret Wars. God Doom was defeated. There was an interim period when the domains were all about to take a step to either return to what the 616 used to be, or, the multiverse. Sue, Valeria and Franklin were Dooms family, but God Doom was without power now, because the Molecule Man transferred that power to Reed Richards.

Okay, who was the Sue, Val, and Franky at the end, who were interacting with God Reed? Were they Dooms family? If not, then what did God Reed do with Dooms family? Because the Franklin who asked his dad (Reed) "could we become super heroes again", was Reeds family, and they died in the start of Secret Wars when the Raft ripped apart and Sue and the kids were destroyed. So, did God Reed kill Dooms Sue and kids, and return to life his family? Or, did God Reed mind alter Dooms family to be his family? Unanswered questions.

On one level it was icky that Doom aspired to have Reeds family. On another level, it would be icky if Reed aspired to take Dooms family, no?

We literally spent a couple of weeks debating this back in the day. Surely we made some progress on the issue?

[JKtheMac]

I think the answer is much simpler. After Reed was able to gain the Molecule Man's approval to use the powers that Doom was tapping into, Reed seems to have written everything out of his rebuild of the multiverses. Brevoort has stated that Earth is no longer a 616 number (which I always thought was dumb anyway and so did Brevoort) and is Earth Prime. I'm still not sure what exactly T'Challa's role in all of it was because when he used the Time Gem (even Brevoort and Hickman waffle on which gem though) , everything proceeded from the point before Black Swan showed up to start the first incursion we saw in New Avengers. Mind you, that's the first one we readers saw because by that time Doom had already begun the process some time before that. IIRC he spent about 20 years in the past doing the multiple killings of the Molecule Men dispersed throughout the Multiverses.

As for Doom's family, the slice in time when they existed has been erased. That Earth's Sue probably didn't see her father die and they may have continued on as if the final incursion didn't happen for them.

I know the 'reset back to the first incursion' theory keeps coming back but it has been totally disproven by just about everything that has happened since in the MU. It didn't make logical sense back then, it makes no sense whatsoever any more. There was categorically no reset. If T'Challa used the reality gem then he allowed Wakanda to recover its people, buildings and ongoing projects. If he used the Time Gem he is presumably pulling some of the past people and things back to the present, but we know from Black Panther that everyone remembers what happened in the period after the first incursion so that doesn't make much sense.

At the time I am not even sure Marvel knew exactly what they wanted to do. The jump in time allowed them some breathing space. So the difference of opinion at Marvel was probably reflective of a conversation being had with creators and editors about the next step.

[Iron Maiden]

I know the 'reset back to the first incursion' theory keeps coming back but it has been totally disproven by just about everything that has happened since in the MU. It didn't make logical sense back then, it makes no sense whatsoever any more. There was categorically no reset. If T'Challa used the reality gem then he allowed Wakanda to recover its people, buildings and ongoing projects. If he used the Time Gem he is presumably pulling some of the past people and things back to the present, but we know from Black Panther that everyone remembers what happened in the period after the first incursion so that doesn't make much sense.

At the time I am not even sure Marvel knew exactly what they wanted to do. The jump in time allowed them some breathing space. So the difference of opinion at Marvel was probably reflective of a conversation being had with creators and editors about the next step.

IF you read my post again, what I'm saying is that with T'Challa, the part that is erased is when Black Swan shows up and the first incursion starts. The past is still the same. I've not been reading Black Panther so I can't comment on that. Are you saying that Thanos and the Cabal still attack Wakanda? Because that wouldn't make any sense since their would be no need for them to exist. There would be no incursions for them to take care of. Is that what the Wakandans are remembering? Again, that wouldn't make sense. Infamous Iron Man, it appears that Bendis is limiting the number of people who actually remember what happened when he tells Amara about being a God. So if very few people know about that period of time when Earth and the universe as they knew if no longer existed, IMO it doesn't make sense that Wakandans remember about the destruction caused by Thanos and his Cabal when there would be no need for them to fight off any incurions.

[JKtheMac]

IF you read my post again, what I'm saying is that with T'Challa, the part that is erased is when Black Swan shows up and the first incursion starts. The past is still the same. I've not been reading Black Panther so I can't comment on that. Are you saying that Thanos and the Cabal still attack Wakanda? Because that wouldn't make any sense since their would be no need for them to exist. There would be no incursions for them to take care of. Is that what the Wakandans are remembering? Again, that wouldn't make sense. Infamous Iron Man, it appears that Bendis is limiting the number of people who actually remember what happened when he tells Amara about being a God. So if very few people know about that period of time when Earth and the universe as they knew if no longer existed, IMO it doesn't make sense that Wakandans remember about the destruction caused by Thanos and his Cabal when there would be no need for them to fight off any incurions.

Yes the Cabal stuff all happens still and literally hundreds of other little things across ANAD have referenced things that occurred directly because of the incursions.

You touch on one of the confusions. Very few people from the 616 remember Battleworld. Mostly the people that do are denizens of other realms, or the raft survivors. But confusion about the last incursion and Battleworld are not to be confused with people not remembering the key things like the UN collusion with the Cabal, or the hunting of the Avengers as villains, which was widespread news and something nobody has forgotten.

But remember, until the final incursion the vast majority of people on Earth had not witnessed an incursion, and only understood that some people were saying the world was due to end. Then somehow the day was saved. Everyone moved on, just like every other world threatening event the poor people of the Marvel Universe have to put up with. Those in New York that have good memories of the event are confused by mass destruction replaced by a new New York.

We have had some writers promising to tell the stories of people that had their lives changed when the 616 merged with the 1610. Soule has talked about people suddenly remembering they were architects but are now doing another job they always did. New York will be especially convuluted like this, but most of the world will just be a reset 616.

I bet it gets referenced in the Darkhold New York of Secret Empire at some point.

[Iron Maiden]

I don't read the whole line (I kind of doubt anyone can) but what you are saying doesn't make much sense in the context of these scenes....

From New Avengers #1 - just before the first incursion...




....and this from Secret Wars #9



The scene resumes from New Avengers #1 does it not? Not one in ruins from being ravaged by Thanos and his Cabal.
This scene that follows from SW #9 implies a renewed Wakanda

What about the deaths? Doctor Strange was killed by God Doom. Namor, I assume was also.

[JKtheMac]

I don't read the whole line (I kind of doubt anyone can) but what you are saying doesn't make much sense in the context of these scenes....

Actually I did read the whole line from AvX up to Secret Wars. It is possible just very time consuming. Was pleased to be finished. Not that different those that read the whole x-men chronology (I am doing that too).

I am fully aware of your point, and those pages. Even at the time I was one of the few arguing in these forums that it didn't represent a reset. Since then we know for a fact it wasn't, primarily because the Black Panther comic references the events since, and World of Wakanda which fills in some gaps for a couple of characters in BP is actually set in that time period and the characters are still around and remember what happened during Infinity and the period of the Cabal. What appears to have happened is a merging of realities to reform Wakanda as it was at the beginning and not how it was when the rest of the world got rebuilt. Technically a resurrection of a whole nation.

This thematically works with the Hickman arc where Black Panther and Reed have their destinies tied to each other beyond death. Battleword was a kind of underworld and T'Challa was questing to bring back his people from the dead.

It has not been fully explained as to how time can be both reset for only one nation and yet everyone remembers everything, but that's comics. We have to imagine everyone in Wakanda has some confused memories of that period, just like New Yorkers do.

[Iron Maiden]

Okay, now I see what you're saying. Wakanda is for some reason the exception but it could be more like editorial inconsistency. The students in the above scene were killed by the Black Swan. But as we saw, whatever BP did with whatever Infinity Gem he used brought them back from the dead. BTW, hasn't the Black Swan appeared in a title recently? Does she remember Rabam Alal?

[JKtheMac]

Okay, now I see what you're saying. Wakanda is for some reason the exception but it could be more like editorial inconsistency. The students in the above scene were killed by the Black Swan. But as we saw, whatever BP did with whatever Infinity Gem he used brought them back from the dead. BTW, hasn't the Black Swan appeared in a title recently? Does she remember Rabam Alal?

It is implied that most if not all of the population of Wakanda was dead before the last incursion. If the reboot of the universe had not included Wakanda as a special case T'Challa would be the only one left standing in the rubble.

This is why we saw the amassed dead of Wakanda looking at T'Challa with expectation both before Secret Wars and during the event.

Black Swan is perhaps still around. Some think she died in Unworthy Thor, but I don't think so. She hasn't had many lines yet. There has been a recent habit of killing off Hickman's bad guys, much to many people's consternation.

[Iron Maiden]

Yeah, you're right. Thanos killed Corvius Glave, or was it that he allowed him to kill himself? I have no idea about where Proxima Midnight might be.