Some help understanding Secret Wars (2015)?

[Abe]

I have to disagree, slightly. Doom built Battleworld out of 616 and 1610, and nothing else. Those were the only two universes left when Doom gained the power. The new universes being created by the Molecule man and Franklin also can only come from those two universes because nothing was left of any of the other ones.

The different domains of Battleworld obviously don't come all from Earth 616 and Earth 1610 : other Earths, other incursions points, are involved. I think that after destroying the beyonders and, simultaneously - collateral damages... - hundred thousands of universes Victor, Stephen and Owen started collecting the last remnants of multiverse which was still collapsing. They didn't stop the incursions, but something was noticed by the Illuminati and the AIM in NA #29 : some 'domes' - energetic domes or something like that - recently appearing over the incursion sites. In fact the first to notice that new phenomenon were the Cabal : Thanos is told to be concerned in NA #16 by the fact that the incursion points started to linger, not for long, before collapsing. IMHO it was Vic & his guys, helped with the newly acquired power of the Beyonders, who were starting to collect what would be left.

How did it work, I don't know... My theory at the time was that it was like a kind of scan - scanning the same fundamental data with which the Beyonders used to play and to experiment. Data which include the 'footprints' of the people. This is where my theory at the time went pretty meta - but it's in the books : every universe seems to include a version of our beloved characters, or at least something or someone that incarnate the very idea that they represent - I'm referring to the search for the Molecule Men : sometimes there are no Owen, but a Manifold would help find the incarnation of his 'idea'.

To go deeply into the rabbit hole of that old theory from the beginning of SW, I was really convinced at that time that everything and everyone truly died - and 'went to god', I mean the white light according to Reed's words in the very first pages of SW 1, words which referred to the power of the Beyonders - which belongs to Doom at a moment of time. I really thought that every one on Battleworld were saved because their blueprints were scanned, saved - and then that's why and how they were recreated.... Hmm.... Not much would help me to prove that point, but I have to highlight the fact that Reed Owen and Franklin were able to create many new universes and, doing so, were able to create life, characters... Kinda the same power than the one needed to resurrect someone. The differences between team GodDoom and team GodReed being Franklin : obviously he has more imagination that Vic... Hickman made of that special power of Franklin an important part of his FF run. In short : Franklin doesn't need blueprints...

I liked my theory a lot at the time! lol

(Of course with that theory I had no problem then believing Hickman when he said that Sue and the kids died... But for what happened next... ...)



@CentralPower : thanks for the explanations about the 'Burn' thing. I wasn't sure about how to take it! Love reading your posts BTW. Peace.

(about the tie-ins I chose to follow Thors, Siege, Old Man Logan and Agents of Atlas IRRC, and I regret that I missed the first issue of the one with Angela. The writing and the art of all those books were great and no one disappointed me. The freedom allowed to so many creative teams was one of the great ideas of that event, even if it was painful for the people who were following many more books than me before it replaced all the Marvel line. Quite experimental and very interesting!)

@JKtheMac : is it needed to say that I wholeheartedly agree with your theoretical point of view about the ways to read a story?...

@Iron Maiden : I don't want to damage our beloved character, you know it, dear friend! All my apologies... sincerely... (But I hope that you have noticed how cautious I am!) So I have to conclude that I, also, fully respect the official cannon ...

[AgSurfer]

I'll concede that I didn't read much of Secret Wars, but all those Warzones were the remains of different realties. So, Doom was working with more than just 616 and 1610.

That's the point of these last few post, the inconsistencies. I read Secret Wars but was so frustrated by it that it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the details didn't stick in my memory. But if I remember right all universes were gone except 616 and the Ultimates 1610. Doom could only build a new universe from 616 and 1610, and Molecule Man and Franklin are bound by the same limitations. The more I think of it, characters from 616/1610 timelines are less of a problem that if there are any non 616/1610 characters running around in the new Marvel Universe. That should absolutely be impossible.

[WebLurker]

That's the point of these last few post, the inconsistencies. I read Secret Wars but was so frustrated by it that it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the details didn't stick in my memory. But if I remember right all universes were gone except 616 and the Ultimates 1610. Doom could only build a new universe from 616 and 1610, and Molecule Man and Franklin are bound by the same limitations. The more I think of it, characters from 616/1610 timelines are less of a problem that if there are any non 616/1610 characters running around in the new Marvel Universe. That should absolutely be impossible.

Well, I have heard that there were some discrepancies throughout the event, which is understandable given how many different authors were working on it.

Case in point, I'm looking at my copy of the Secret Wars Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows miniseries and the introduction page clearly states that the Regency (the Warzone that the story takes place in) came from the remains of a parallel universe that was destroyed in the event, not a new one built from the remains of 616 and Ultimate. So, either this wasn't clearly thought out, or there were different ideas going on.

For my money, I though it was always understood that Doom had gotten more than just the 616 and Ultimate Universes to construct Battleworld. That's what I remember was the word when it was coming out.

[Rosebunse]

That is what it was. That's why you had zombies, an entire trek of land for Mr. Sinister, why the Maestro had his own territory, etc.

The Ultimate and 616 Universe were technically merged into one relatively small bit of land.

[CentralPower]

So, were the Incursions sped up by the First Firmament?

Was it behind the Beyonders? Is that what we're going with?

The Beyonders simply existed. And, Hickman established that they had a role in the incursions during "Time Runs Out".

First Firmament has nothing to do with this. (First Firmament did not appear until recently in Ewing's Ultimates run. Barring a significant back-write, it is unrelated to the incursions.)

thanks for the explanations about the 'Burn' thing. I wasn't sure about how to take it! Love reading your posts BTW. Peace.

No problem. Hope to see you around the forums.

That's the point of these last few post, the inconsistencies. I read Secret Wars but was so frustrated by it that it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the details didn't stick in my memory. But if I remember right all universes were gone except 616 and the Ultimates 1610. Doom could only build a new universe from 616 and 1610, and Molecule Man and Franklin are bound by the same limitations. The more I think of it, characters from 616/1610 timelines are less of a problem that if there are any non 616/1610 characters running around in the new Marvel Universe. That should absolutely be impossible.

Doom was saving bits and pieces of timelines. It was suppose to be more than 616 and Ultimate.

The point of "Secret Wars" and Battleworld was not to make everything fit together. It was to give writers self-contained series to kick around for a few months before things went back to normal.

[jackolover]

I feel like I'm listening to Jubal Early from Firefly. Does that seem right to you?

I am not familiar with Jubal Early.

[jackolover]

I don't want to go anywhere, I am just explaining what I believe to be the story the writer is telling. We have Reed helplessly watch his family die, then he arrives on Battleworld and his arrival sets his daughter of into a quest for truth. Indeed the Future Foundation are mainly shown in the context of seeking truth. They find things that contradict the truth of Doom. Valeria is apparently recognising her own father.

All this being said, Reed is perfectly positioned to save his family at the end of the story, so we know Sue didn't die, she even says as much. There are only two options, Doom saved her and changed her memories, or Reed saved her once he took over. I think the first option makes more sense in the overall context. We will never have a complete answer unless Hickman breaks a habit that he generally sticks to, of not talking about the meaning of his stories.

One of the key questions is what Reed did to make the new MU. I am sure editorial would prefer to think of him actually individually saving people, but I am not convinced that was possible.

Valeria was already in the throws of illegally gaining information contradicting daddy Doom, as that conversation shows between Val and Dr Strange finding out Val was hiding something. It wasn't Reed setting her off. She had an enquiring mind already.

I didn't see Reed perfectly positioned to save his family at the end of the story. They were different people, not his family. Anyways, that's how I read the story. If I were to read the story that Reed, Sue and Val recognised each other, then it should have showed that, but it didn't.

[jackolover]

Obsessive maybe. Skeptical of editors, sometimes. My insistence is not a refusal, it is just a strong point of view. You don't need to share it. I don't need to throw out my perspective just because those responsible say so. I vehemently assert that ET was christian analogy, even though Spielberg denies it. We can all be right. We just have to acknowledge our perspectives are different.

The only controversial part is that I am asserting that the writer also believed this. But that is still an opinion. He could jump on this forum and explain the whole thing and I would, naturally weigh up what I heard, compare it to my perspective, and only then decide if I believed him. I think you will find he didn't assert this vigorously, only mentioned it a couple of times, and technically what he said wasn't true anyway, even by your perspective which I presume is based on Sue thanking Reed for saving her. So she wasn't dead was she? Where does that leave his statement that she was?

To explain my perspective fully, I was initially confused by the whole issue. It never seemed terrible to me. Indeed it made more sense that Sue and her family were all under mind control than Reed miraculously creating children based on Reed's genetics. That in and of itself suggests Doom had no reason to have sex with Sue. He isn't the father of her children.

Valeria gets her intellect from Reed. Her role in many stories has thematically been a kind of redemption of the parents by the child. Making her Doom's kid by whatever means, is just odd. I don't see any reason for Doom to do that. It might be in his nature to save an alternative Sue, but I don't see it in his nature to totally recreate somebody else's legacy. What would be the point? So are we supposed to assume he found alternative versions of the kids? Again why? To have what Reed had? He may be driven and sometimes approaching insanity, but I don't see him as that petty.

To me it makes more sense he would rescue a family in need and convince himself that by replacing Reed he is somehow helping them. That mirrors his saving of other worlds and yet seeking to control them through lies for their own good. It is that kind of mirroring that writers build stories from, and why they would resist editors telling them to change small details. Indeed, the compromise seems to have been keep things ambiguous. Make every detail interpretable in both ways. Don't show Reed saving Sue, have Sue's version a child's bedtime story to hint at artifice. Have Valeria seem knowing. Lots of little things that add up to keeping editors happy while staying true to the story.

Doom saved pizza slices of realities, and we know he preserved the 616 and Ultimate Universe Manhattans at the time of the last Incursion. Does that mean that he preserved everybody, alive or destroyed, in that event, and transported them to the Manhattan Domain? Does that mean he transported Sue and the kids to that Domain too?

I just don't know why Reeds raft survived the destructive "outside" forces, while Sues breakaway section fractured into little pieces because of the huge forces "outside"? Was the raft capable of withstanding the contact of two planets hitting each other?

[JKtheMac]

I have to disagree, slightly. Doom built Battleworld out of 616 and 1610, and nothing else. Those were the only two universes left when Doom gained the power. The new universes being created by the Molecule man and Franklin also can only come from those two universes because nothing was left of any of the other ones.

No. He used incursion zones from multiple earths. Trying to straighten out Dooms personal timeline across this event is probably not even possible but the idea of Secret Wars, the very premise of the event, is that he is saving a whole host of realities. That is why we even have the different regions.

P.S. Bear in mind that the power of The Beyonders allows you too see time from outside. Once he has this he can pretty much grab things from the whole of history.

[jackolover]

Presumably that is why Reed won't even look her in the eyes.

If you are suggesting Sue was raped by Doom while in their relationship, and that's why Reed couldn't even look Sue in the eyes, imagine how Sue now feels knowing Victor raped her?

[jackolover]

So, were the Incursions sped up by the First Firmament?

Was it behind the Beyonders? Is that what we're going with?

The First Firmament could be the cause of the Incursions as they appeared in New Avengers #1. That would be sensational.

Certainly the Beyonders intended to obliterate the 7th iteration of reality, and that benefitted the First Firmament, because he could start again his way, but, he didn't seem to be in control this time either because Reed and Co created the next Multiverse. Missed his chance again.

[JKtheMac]

To go deeply into the rabbit hole of that old theory from the beginning of SW, I was really convinced at that time that everything and everyone truly died - and 'went to god', I mean the white light according to Reed's words in the very first pages of SW 1, words which referred to the power of the Beyonders - which belongs to Doom at a moment of time. I really thought that every one on Battleworld were saved because their blueprints were scanned, saved - and then that's why and how they were recreated.... Hmm.... Not much would help me to prove that point, but I have to highlight the fact that Reed Owen and Franklin were able to create many new universes and, doing so, were able to create life, characters... Kinda the same power than the one needed to resurrect someone. The differences between team GodDoom and team GodReed being Franklin : obviously he has more imagination that Vic... Hickman made of that special power of Franklin an important part of his FF run. In short : Franklin doesn't need blueprints...

I liked my theory a lot at the time! lol

Hickman was highly influenced by early mythology (and still is in his other books) especially the very early myths of the middle east. The Doom religion, with its Akkadian text, is clearly referencing Assyrian and Babylonian ideas. His concept of Battleworld is indeed a kind of life after death.

In those early religions the land of the dead is viewed in a couple of different ways. Some stories describe a broken shadowy, dust filled realm that mirrors the other realities in darkness, where the dead are ghosts in a kind of limbo state, eating dust. Others have a slightly more optimistic outlook where the sun god travels at night or a great city that is a kind of reflection of life. Everyone goes there. There is no other heavenly realm of the dead. Primarily the land of the dead is a duller place.

Doom's Battleworld, is a kind of limbo underworld. Nobody there would choose that new reality over their former lives. In that way your theories are not totally invalid. This was a figurative land of the dead ruled over by a god. Each transported incursion zone was being moved to an underworld of sorts. The life-raft heroes represent questers into the underworld to bring back life. A four-coloured Marvel version of the 'Descent of Ishtar to the Underworld', seeking the return of their friends, and in their case, a rebirth of the world. Much as in Egypt the world can be seen as being recreated each day.

[JKtheMac]

If you are suggesting Sue was raped by Doom while in their relationship, and that's why Reed couldn't even look Sue in the eyes, imagine how Sue now feels knowing Victor raped her?

No that wasn't my suggestion. I was referring to the way people close their eyes when they are lying to people.

[jackolover]

The different domains of Battleworld obviously don't come all from Earth 616 and Earth 1610 : other Earths, other incursions points, are involved. I think that after destroying the beyonders and, simultaneously - collateral damages... - hundred thousands of universes Victor, Stephen and Owen started collecting the last remnants of multiverse which was still collapsing. They didn't stop the incursions, but something was noticed by the Illuminati and the AIM in NA #29 : some 'domes' - energetic domes or something like that - recently appearing over the incursion sites. In fact the first to notice that new phenomenon were the Cabal : Thanos is told to be concerned in NA #16 by the fact that the incursion points started to linger, not for long, before collapsing. IMHO it was Vic & his guys, helped with the newly acquired power of the Beyonders, who were starting to collect what would be left.

How did it work, I don't know... My theory at the time was that it was like a kind of scan - scanning the same fundamental data with which the Beyonders used to play and to experiment. Data which include the 'footprints' of the people. This is where my theory at the time went pretty meta - but it's in the books : every universe seems to include a version of our beloved characters, or at least something or someone that incarnate the very idea that they represent - I'm referring to the search for the Molecule Men : sometimes there are no Owen, but a Manifold would help find the incarnation of his 'idea'.

To go deeply into the rabbit hole of that old theory from the beginning of SW, I was really convinced at that time that everything and everyone truly died - and 'went to god', I mean the white light according to Reed's words in the very first pages of SW 1, words which referred to the power of the Beyonders - which belongs to Doom at a moment of time. I really thought that every one on Battleworld were saved because their blueprints were scanned, saved - and then that's why and how they were recreated.... Hmm.... Not much would help me to prove that point, but I have to highlight the fact that Reed Owen and Franklin were able to create many new universes and, doing so, were able to create life, characters... Kinda the same power than the one needed to resurrect someone. The differences between team GodDoom and team GodReed being Franklin : obviously he has more imagination that Vic... Hickman made of that special power of Franklin an important part of his FF run. In short : Franklin doesn't need blueprints...

I liked my theory a lot at the time! lol

(Of course with that theory I had no problem then believing Hickman when he said that Sue and the kids died... But for what happened next... ...)



@CentralPower : thanks for the explanations about the 'Burn' thing. I wasn't sure about how to take it! Love reading your posts BTW. Peace.

(about the tie-ins I chose to follow Thors, Siege, Old Man Logan and Agents of Atlas IRRC, and I regret that I missed the first issue of the one with Angela. The writing and the art of all those books were great and no one disappointed me. The freedom allowed to so many creative teams was one of the great ideas of that event, even if it was painful for the people who were following many more books than me before it replaced all the Marvel line. Quite experimental and very interesting!)

@JKtheMac : is it needed to say that I wholeheartedly agree with your theoretical point of view about the ways to read a story?...

@Iron Maiden : I don't want to damage our beloved character, you know it, dear friend! All my apologies... sincerely... (But I hope that you have noticed how cautious I am!) So I have to conclude that I, also, fully respect the official cannon ...

On the power of the Beyonders, God Doom didn't have to preserve any of the Multiverse.

As we saw in New Avengers Illuminati series, the Illuminati went to the Asteroid belt to find a Beyonder had created the whole of Manhattan island on an asteroid, and filled it with all its people, and was playing with them like dolls. God Doom could have easily done the same thing on Battleworld, but according to Stephen Strange, Doom preserved all the pieces of the Multiverse that he could. Stephen felt he didn't have the capacity to do it, himself, when it was offered to him. But Stephen still felt the Multiverse pizza slices were preserved, not recreated by Doom.

[jackolover]

No that wasn't my suggestion. I was referring to the way people close their eyes when they are lying to people.

Okay. My misunderstanding.