View Poll Results: Do you consider Stephanie Brown to be a true Robin?

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  • Yes, her time in the tights makes her as much of a Robin as the rest of the boys!

    80 50.31%
  • No, she was not defined by the mantle as were the other Robins.

    79 49.69%
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  1. #196
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    Perhaps back in the day when Batman and robins were more of a duo. I think the position is eyed more becuase of recognizability.
    I agree with Damian it’s not a forever thing, and you should adavance from it. I like how people know Damian Name first before Robin. I think it will help in the long run.
    I think the idea that it's not a forever thing is only because creators get too excited about making their own new Robin, and have since Tim's creation (with the competition from Anarky). Since Damian's creation, we've had Harper, Duke, all of the We Are Robins (though of course they have a different position), Maps (yes, she's Robin in an AU, but it's still something DC is publishing), Gotham Girl filling the Robin role for Thomas, and Clownhunter (clearly Tynion's attempt to make another Edgy Robin). I like most of these characters, but I think that the jockeying for the Robin slot isn't good for any of them. But it's going to keep continuing until someone pulls a Morrison and creates one in a story strong enough that it displaces Damian. And the cycle will continue from there. I think it's key that Damian's solo titles have all been as Robin, even if he himself has questions about what his role is.

    Or they'll reboot completely and ban any new character creation. But that seems more destructive than any other option.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I think the idea that it's not a forever thing is only because creators get too excited about making their own new Robin, and have since Tim's creation (with the competition from Anarky). Since Damian's creation, we've had Harper, Duke, all of the We Are Robins (though of course they have a different position), Maps (yes, she's Robin in an AU, but it's still something DC is publishing), Gotham Girl filling the Robin role for Thomas, and Clownhunter (clearly Tynion's attempt to make another Edgy Robin). I like most of these characters, but I think that the jockeying for the Robin slot isn't good for any of them. But it's going to keep continuing until someone pulls a Morrison and creates one in a story strong enough that it displaces Damian. And the cycle will continue from there. I think it's key that Damian's solo titles have all been as Robin, even if he himself has questions about what his role is.

    Or they'll reboot completely and ban any new character creation. But that seems more destructive than any other option.
    Well we are in a interesting position now. After the death of Damian in baman INC I cant comprehend another robin after damian . At least not with bruce. To put another child in harms way under his watch.... It was quite a site, a ten year old riddles with bullets arrows and then neck snapped. Almost as horrifying as Barbra being paralyzed. its a little harder to replaced damian with a new kid, and more difficult to ignore Bruce not ageing

  3. #198
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    Well we are in a interesting position now. After the death of Damian in baman INC I cant comprehend another robin after damian . At least not with bruce. To put another child in harms way under his watch.... It was quite a site, a ten year old riddles with bullets arrows and then neck snapped. Almost as horrifying as Barbra being paralyzed. its a little harder to replaced damian with a new kid, and more difficult to ignore Bruce not ageing
    I think if we ever get Damian replaced it'll probably be when a writer wants to write Batman and Robin together and Damian can't function like that anymore.

  4. #199
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    Well we are in a interesting position now. After the death of Damian in baman INC I cant comprehend another robin after damian . At least not with bruce. To put another child in harms way under his watch.... It was quite a site, a ten year old riddles with bullets arrows and then neck snapped. Almost as horrifying as Barbra being paralyzed. its a little harder to replaced damian with a new kid, and more difficult to ignore Bruce not ageing
    ...I thought Damian was killed by being impaled on a sword?

    I'm not saying I personally want Damian replaced, but I think there's too much ambition in writers to replace him for it not to happen eventually.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    ...I thought Damian was killed by being impaled on a sword?

    I'm not saying I personally want Damian replaced, but I think there's too much ambition in writers to replace him for it not to happen eventually.
    Just reread it, jesus I see why we dont have a live action kid robin again
    you were right about the sword. but the sequence is alot.

    I'm sure it will happen, its inevitable, Damian is growing up, it may be slowly, but by 16-18 he will take on his ow identity or just Go by his name. The slot will open
    It may be Grown man tim or some new child. It will be a hard sell for though, if Bruce has to raise a 6th child and still be Batman. Then again Bruce wayne will be public domain soon, I dont know whats gonna happen.

  6. #201
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    Just reread it, jesus I see why we dont have a live action kid robin again
    you were right about the sword. but the sequence is alot.

    I'm sure it will happen, its inevitable, Damian is growing up, it may be slowly, but by 16-18 he will take on his ow identity or just Go by his name. The slot will open
    It may be Grown man tim or some new child. It will be a hard sell for though, if Bruce has to raise a 6th child and still be Batman. Then again Bruce wayne will be public domain soon, I dont know whats gonna happen.
    Public domain won't really matter - DC and most franchises have been focusing on the dual strategy of trademarks and "what PART of the character is public domain" (see also the Sherlock Holmes argument that he's only a warm and emotional person in the later stories that are still under copyright, so any story that has Holmes being warm and emotional needs to pay them).

    That being said...I will be curious to see what writer finally figures out how to make a new Robin. I don't really want it to happen, as I said, but I've seen it happen for real with Damian, and attempts for the 10 years after his introduction, so...it just feels inevitable.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  7. #202
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    If Stephanie is a true Robin then so are all the "We Are Robin" kids.

  8. #203
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    If Stephanie is a true Robin then so are all the "We Are Robin" kids.
    I disagree. Stephanie was the solo hero for three issues of Robin, and guest starred as the only Robin in three other titles at the same time, plus was the direct partner of Batman. The We Are Robin kids were part of a very loosely affiliated group, and none of them were direct partners of even the Batman at the time, Jim Gordon. My criteria for
    true Robin" is:

    Has to be the title character of a Robin series
    Has to be the direct partner of the Batman who holds the primary title at the time
    Has to appear as Robin in more than one issue

    Additionally, DC laid down several key elements of "true Robinhood" (pun intended) at the time - Bruce himself telling Stephanie on her "deathbed" that she was really Robin, part of the legend - plus the inclusion in other titles like Teen Titans. As time went on, DC has continued (albeit never as straightforwardly as the last two years) to add to that reinforcement - her memories during her time as Batgirl, inclusion in various guides and timeline features (such as that seen in 52), and of course, inclusion in the Robin 80th special including a cover of her own, the Robin #5 issue, and the Robins miniseries currently going on.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I disagree. Stephanie was the solo hero for three issues of Robin, and guest starred as the only Robin in three other titles at the same time, plus was the direct partner of Batman. The We Are Robin kids were part of a very loosely affiliated group, and none of them were direct partners of even the Batman at the time, Jim Gordon. My criteria for
    true Robin" is:

    Has to be the title character of a Robin series
    Has to be the direct partner of the Batman who holds the primary title at the time
    Has to appear as Robin in more than one issue

    Additionally, DC laid down several key elements of "true Robinhood" (pun intended) at the time - Bruce himself telling Stephanie on her "deathbed" that she was really Robin, part of the legend - plus the inclusion in other titles like Teen Titans. As time went on, DC has continued (albeit never as straightforwardly as the last two years) to add to that reinforcement - her memories during her time as Batgirl, inclusion in various guides and timeline features (such as that seen in 52), and of course, inclusion in the Robin 80th special including a cover of her own, the Robin #5 issue, and the Robins miniseries currently going on.
    Who makes these rules? You? Stephanie was never meant to be permanently Robin. It was a 3 month stunt. Tim was back within a quarter of a year. Its like the saying the Nightwing`s are actual Nightwing`s because they starred in the solo.

    In regards to your criteria:

    Has to be the title character of a Robin series:
    They were. Its called "We Are Robin". IT lasted 12 issues. Four times the amount of Stephanies starring role.
    Has to be the direct partner of the Batman who holds the primary title at the time Gordan had no Robin at the time and was not a true Batman himself. Regardless, Duke has worked with Bruce side by side quite a bit. Again not sure who set this criteria. Not too mention they had the support of the grown up Robins and Alfred.
    [IHas to appear as Robin in more than one issue][/I]They were Robin for at least 12.

    DC also does not take her seriously as Robin. Maybe they will pay her fans some lip service in a comic her or there but they always skip over her in all other media. Was she Robin in Young Justice? Gotham Knights? Any animated movies or video games? Even when considering a female Robin, I am sure DC would go with Carrie Kelley over Stephanie. Because her time in the role is inconsequential and doesn't matter. Does anyone really see her to be as much a Robin as Dick, Jason, Tim or Damien?
    Last edited by Iclifton; 12-02-2021 at 11:12 AM.

  10. #205
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Who makes these rules? You? Stephanie was never meant to be permanently Robin. It was a 3 month stunt. Tim was back within a quarter of a year. Its like the saying the Nightwing`s are actual Nightwing`s because they starred in the solo.

    In regards to your criteria:

    Has to be the title character of a Robin series:
    They were. Its called "We Are Robin". IT lasted 12 issues. Four times the amount of Stephanies starring role.
    Has to be the direct partner of the Batman who holds the primary title at the time Gordan had no Robin at the time and was not a true Batman himself. Regardless, Duke has worked with Bruce side by side quite a bit. Again not sure who set this criteria. Not too mention they had the support of the grown up Robins and Alfred.
    [IHas to appear as Robin in more than one issue][/I]They were Robin for at least 12.

    DC also does not take her seriously as Robin. Maybe they will pay her fans some lip service in a comic her or there but they always skip over her in all other media. Was she Robin in Young Justice? Gotham Knights? Any animated movies or video games? Even when considering a female Robin, I am sure DC would go with Carrie Kelley over Stephanie. Because her time in the role is inconsequential and doesn't matter. Does anyone really see her to be as much a Robin as Dick, Jason, Tim or Damien?
    I don't know why you have to get so hostile. I laid out my criteria in response to your claim. No need to say "Who makes these rules" in such an unpleasant way. Of course I am laying out my own personal criteria. It's a message board for fans to express their personal opinions.

    According to my own criteria, the Nightwings during the run of Ric Grayson are not Nightwings.

    For clarification's sake:

    1) Title CHARACTER - not "characters" or "team".
    2) I made no direct claims about Duke, though if you wish to say that the only time he spent as "Robin" was in We Are Robin, I'm very puzzled. And again, why are you so hung up on "who set this criteria". I did. Just as you are opposing it, as is your right. But you don't need to be so unpleasant about it.
    3) The last rule is mostly there because of characters like Triss from Legends of a Dead Earth, and would have ruled Steph out if her only appearance was in Robin #101.

    DC definitely does not take her AS seriously as the four "main" Robins. But there is a change in direction. Will it lead to anything? Not likely. But for those of us who liked Steph as Robin, and hoped for more based on her potential and the enjoyment of the issues we got, it seems fair to say that she is a "true" Robin.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I don't know why you have to get so hostile. I laid out my criteria in response to your claim. No need to say "Who makes these rules" in such an unpleasant way. Of course I am laying out my own personal criteria. It's a message board for fans to express their personal opinions.

    According to my own criteria, the Nightwings during the run of Ric Grayson are not Nightwings.

    For clarification's sake:

    1) Title CHARACTER - not "characters" or "team".
    2) I made no direct claims about Duke, though if you wish to say that the only time he spent as "Robin" was in We Are Robin, I'm very puzzled. And again, why are you so hung up on "who set this criteria". I did. Just as you are opposing it, as is your right. But you don't need to be so unpleasant about it.
    3) The last rule is mostly there because of characters like Triss from Legends of a Dead Earth, and would have ruled Steph out if her only appearance was in Robin #101.

    DC definitely does not take her AS seriously as the four "main" Robins. But there is a change in direction. Will it lead to anything? Not likely. But for those of us who liked Steph as Robin, and hoped for more based on her potential and the enjoyment of the issues we got, it seems fair to say that she is a "true" Robin.
    Not hostile, just curious where the criteria comes from as it was posted in a direct response to me saying We Are Robin characters are Robin. It seems to be set up specifically so Stephanie can be considered a true Robin while discounting them. Technically by this criteria Dick/Jason do not qualify as Robin as they never starred in a solo Robin book.

    Also, to be honest I skimmed your initial reply as I am on a phone and missed the "MY crtieria" piece. Douche move on my part. My bad.
    Last edited by Iclifton; 12-02-2021 at 02:56 PM.

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Not hostile, just curious where the criteria comes from as it was posted in a direct response to me saying We Are Robin characters are Robin. It seems to be set up specifically so Stephanie can be considered a true Robin while discounting them. Technically by this criteria Dick/Jason do not qualify as Robin as they never starred in a solo Robin book.
    But since the wording was "Has to be the title character of a Robin series", Dick did have a solo-feature as Robin (starting in Star Spangled Comics #65, cover-dated February 1947), and he was also the star of the four-issue Robin: Year One book from late 2000/early 2001.

  13. #208
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Not hostile, just curious where the criteria comes from as it was posted in a direct response to me saying We Are Robin characters are Robin. It seems to be set up specifically so Stephanie can be considered a true Robin while discounting them. Technically by this criteria Dick/Jason do not qualify as Robin as they never starred in a solo Robin book.

    Also, to be honest I skimmed your initial reply as I am on a phone and missed the "MY crtieria" piece. Douche move on my part. My bad.
    Well, I appreciate that.

    To some extent, I did setup the criteria as a justification for my gut feeling that the We Are Robins are not quite the same in category as Steph. If we want to get really technical on my "gut feelings" about "true Robins", it basically goes like this:

    Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian - lengthy runs as Robin, extensive external references and adaptations as Robin or including their history as Robin

    Steph - in a bit of a limninal area - according to the criteria I developed, which makes sense to me, she's a "true Robin", but her run was very short, it was written knowing she was going to die, and there was a long period (2011-2018) where it wasn't part of continuity. But it's back in continuity now, and seems to be impacting several storylines, even if in minor ways. Additionally, Willingham at the very least asked if DC would change their plans because of his own enjoyment of writing Steph's Robin storyline, and the fan response in sales, but was denied. So there was some hope on the creative's side at least that she could have been Robin for longer.

    We Are Robins, Jarro, Carrie Kelley, Triss, Maps Mizoguchi, and other AU Robins - they are cool (I don't personally like Jarro at all, but I understand why people love him) - I adore Riko Sheridan and Dax Chill (and don't get me started on what Patrick did to them in Secret Files: Signal), Dre Cipriano, Maps, Carrie, and many other of these AU or one-off Robins, but they don't have the same valence or resonance that Steph has, brief as her time was.

    So there is reason, in my mind, to say that Steph's time as Robin is qualitatively different from the "main four", but she's also quite different from the We Are Robins, etc, in that her time as Robin tends to come up somewhat frequently as important to storylines.

    Also, get someone to fix Riko and Dax and Dre, please. I'm still so irritated about that one shot that trashed their characters.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  14. #209
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Stephanie was never meant to be permanently Robin. It was a 3 month stunt. Tim was back within a quarter of a year. Its like the saying the Nightwing`s are actual Nightwing`s because they starred in the solo.
    That's always been my opinion too. Even during those issues it was still Tim's book Making his Girlfriend Robin and becoming a Civilian was still all about Tim's character Arc, not Stephs'. It was a gimmick and it was finished almost immediately. A single issue of Teen Titans where Superboy notices the new Robin exists and then Tim's back.

    We've seen Alfred wear a Bat Costume more than we saw Steph in the Robin suit.

    Best case scenario, She tried out for the job and sucked at it and was fired immediately.... worst case scenario she was a tool designed to manipulate Tim into coming back.

    Either way, I don't consider her a Robin. The fact that Bruce didn't kick her while she was dying... (from another massively stupid mistake)
    Doesn't make her Robin. It just means Bruce isn't a COMPLETE jerk. He was a jerk in those days... but not THAT much of a Jerk. If she'd been healed and sat right back up, he wouldn't have given her the suit back.


    Never been a big fan of Carrie Kelly either. Something about the way she decided she was Robin and Bruce was nowhere near his right mind at the time. Broken, delirious and near death... but she did stick around. I think she'd have been better if she STAYED as Robin, because the whole Catgirl/Batman/girl thing they did later was pretty stupid. Though probably the least of the sins of those sequels.

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    That's always been my opinion too. Even during those issues it was still Tim's book Making his Girlfriend Robin and becoming a Civilian was still all about Tim's character Arc, not Stephs'. It was a gimmick and it was finished almost immediately. A single issue of Teen Titans where Superboy notices the new Robin exists and then Tim's back.

    We've seen Alfred wear a Bat Costume more than we saw Steph in the Robin suit.

    Best case scenario, She tried out for the job and sucked at it and was fired immediately.... worst case scenario she was a tool designed to manipulate Tim into coming back.

    Either way, I don't consider her a Robin. The fact that Bruce didn't kick her while she was dying... (from another massively stupid mistake)
    Doesn't make her Robin. It just means Bruce isn't a COMPLETE jerk. He was a jerk in those days... but not THAT much of a Jerk. If she'd been healed and sat right back up, he wouldn't have given her the suit back.
    It was more than just Teen Titans - Steph starred in Detective Comics and Batgirl as well.

    I also think that saying Steph "sucked at it" is incorrect - she did quite well until Batman's unreasonable expectation of "no disobedience" (which he never enforced for any of the other Robins) was broken.

    Steph being Robin was indeed meant to be a temporary gimmick, but as I've pointed out before, at least one of the creators involved (Willingham) thought it had much more long term potential, and asked if it could be extended and her death cancelled. I believe that indicates a lot about her potential in the role. A lot of things in comics were originally intended as temporary gimmicks, and they caught the imaginations of fans and creators. I think it's clear at this point that while not the most popular of these types of things, Steph as Robin definitely has some traction.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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