Is Stephanie Brown a True Robin?

[Pohzee]

Today is Friday. As the week ends and Wednesday passes, many of us have read our comics and discussed them to our satisfaction. The weekly discussion has begun to settle, so it is time to kick up some dirt. It’s time to debate! The internet has never successfully changed anybody’s opinions before, but we can always try!


When the “Robins” (Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian) are discussed collectively here on this forum (as they often are) I have noticed a surfacing response that Stephanie Brown’s tenure as Robin is equal in merit to Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian. As such, these posters consider Stephanie to be “one of the Robins.” What do you think CBR? Do you consider Stephanie Brown to be a Robin (one of “the boys” so to speak)?


This isn’t a question of whether Stephanie Brown was Robin. The answer to that question is unequivocally yes. Stephanie Brown was Robin during the Batman: War Games crossover. This question is asking whether or not you consider Stephanie Brown to be a true Robin alongside Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, and Damian Wayne.

Discuss!

[Pohzee]

I believe the answer to this question is no. Stephanie Brown is not “a Robin.” She certainly was Robin for a period of time, but simply being Robin does not in my opinion make “a Robin.”

This sounds awfully semantic, I know. “How can one be Robin and not be one of the Robins?” you may ask. The answer is that my definition of a Robin is more narrowly tailored than simply the act of being Robin. To me, a Robin is a character that whose character and development are defined by their time as Robin, whose history is inseparable from their time as Robin, and served in this position for many real world years before replacement. Dick Grayson was created as the individual hero Robin and operated as Robin for over forty years before graduating into the Nightwing persona. Jason Todd was created to replace Dick as Robin and was Robin for nearly five years before dying in Death in the Family. As a response to Jason’s death, Tim Drake was created to be Robin. Tim went on to be Robin for twenty years. In his epic Batman run, Grant Morrison introduced Damian Wayne, the biological son of Batman. He was originally envisioned to die in four issues, without a code name or character arc, but Morrison decided to develop the character by developing him in the Robin mantle before killing him. Despite Morrison’s intentions to keep Damian deceased, Damian was resurrected and returned to the Robin mantle and remains Robin to this day.

Each of these these characters are defined by their “Robinhood”: To oversimplify, Dick is the first Robin who grew up and became his own man. Jason is the dead Robin who was resurrected and operates as a dark Robin that operates in shades grayer than most of the Batfamily. Tim... doesn’t exactly have a role, but this is because he was so deeply tied to the Robin persona that stripping his character of the mantle left him without a place. For Damian, the Robin mantle is his means of redemption and development from a brat assassin into a hero. Their time as Robin is centrally important to these characters. Removing their history of Robin significantly alters their character, stripping their of their place and appeal.

Stephanie Brown was not created to be Robin. She was created with her own unique identity: Spoiler. Stephanie Brown became Robin during the War Games story arc. Unlike other Robins, Stephanie Brown’s tenure as Robin did not last for multiple years, or even one year. Stephanie Brown was Robin for a four month period of real world time. Unlike the other Robins, Stephanie Brown was not made Robin to fill the mantle or to undergo character development. Stephanie Brown was made Robin as a misdirection. According to the former Batgirl writer Dylan Horrocks, Stephanie was made Robin "purely as a trick to play on the readers, that we would fool them into thinking that the big event [War Games] was that Stephanie Brown would become Robin but we knew all along it was a temporary thing, and she was then going to die at the end of this crossover story.” Like Damian, Stephanie was never intended to be Robin indefinitely and were predetermined to die after their stint as Robin. On the surface, it may seem that Damian and Stephanie’s time as Robin are similar enough that one being a Robin merits the other’s recognition. However, when we dive into the differences of their tenure, clear distinctions begin to emerge. Primarily, I return to the length issue. Stephanie’s time as Robin was twenty times shorter than the next shortest duration of Robin. Secondly, Robin has become an integral part of Damian’s character. His time a Robin served as a period of important development and integral part of his character. You cannot remove his history of Robin without completely altering the character. On the other hand, Robin has never been an important part of Stephanie Brown’s character. Stephanie Brown was created 12 years before she became Robin and had her own defining mantle as Spoiler. After her return from the dead and during the end of the post-Crisis era, Stephanie Brown adopted the mantle of Batgirl. This run was widely enjoyed, much more so than her controversial time as Robin. Stephanie Brown moved on from the Robin mantle with little impact on her character and was superseded by the Robin who she followed, making this more of a bump in the road for both her character and the heritage of the Robin mantle. In the New 52, Stephanie was reintroduced without her time as Robin and it has not changed her character significantly. This is not the case with true Robins.

Stephanie Brown is not and has never been defined by her time as Robin. Her time in the mantle was too short and her legacy limited as Tim settled back into his staus quo as Robin following her departure. Both her time as Spoiler and as Batgirl are more important parts of her character than her time as Robin. As such, I do not consider Stephanie Brown to be “one of the Robins.”

[Katana500]

It sounds like you've thought about this a lot Nightwinglvl Im not that sure! I think she is a true robin...maybe, I don't think time matters all that much! Because even though it was super short it was still really important to her character.

One thing I do know is I'd love to see her as Robin again one day. I think a proper female Robin was a missed opportunity for DC.

[Assam]

First off, I want to commend you. This is, quite frankly, the most mature, and well thought out argument I've ever seen for Steph not being "a true Robin."

You definitely raise some good points, but ultimately I still disagree, and I'll explain why once I've properly gathered my thoughts,(I don't like making arguments that I haven't fully thought out), as that's necessary given the quality of the points made.

[The Whovian]

Yes, she absolutely was a Robin.

[MajorHoy]

She was a Robin in a different continuity, but there is no evidence yet that her time as a Robin actually happened now with the current version of continuity.

[Caivu]

Robin.jpg

/thread

[Assam]

Robin.jpg

/thread

Heh. I was gonna post that with my eventual extended response.

Oh, and while part of a shitty retcon because people were rightfully complaining, Bruce ALSO said that the only reason she didn't get a Robin memorial was because he knew she was alive.

[Aioros22]

On principle maybe I`d might say yes but I never followed her run. With the requirements you laid out in the OP, there`s already someone I consider one of the boys.

Her name is Carrie Kelley.

[adrikito]

In my opinion YES.. She was a Robin..

In the last chapter of Batman Beyond chapter Bruce remembers the old Robins (dick, jason, tim and damian) and... in the end he adds Duke...

BBY.jpg

If Duke can be considered a Robin, Steph is MORE ROBIN. She wears the Robin costume.

[Badou]

I went with no. She just doesn't seem to be part of the Robin Legacy like how the others are and is now much more associated with the Batgirl mantel. When she became Batgirl that is what defined her character and when she became a much more central part of the Batman family.

Her time as Robin is gone from continuity too pretty much and whenever they mention former Robins she isn't typically listed. I mean Jim Gordon had a longer tenure as Batman than she had as Robin but people don't look at Jim as being part of the Batman Legacy. Carrie Kelley is the female Robin that people acknowledge not Steph.

[The Whovian]

Robin.jpg

/thread

[MajorHoy]

NOTE: This thread was originally started back in April of 2017.

--------------------------

. . . it is time to kick up some dirt. It’s time to debate! The internet has never successfully changed anybody’s opinions before, but we can always try!

When the “Robins” (Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian) are discussed collectively here on this forum (as they often are) I have noticed a surfacing response that Stephanie Brown’s tenure as Robin is equal in merit to Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian. As such, these posters consider Stephanie to be “one of the Robins.” What do you think CBR? Do you consider Stephanie Brown to be a Robin (one of “the boys” so to speak)?

This isn’t a question of whether Stephanie Brown was Robin. The answer to that question is unequivocally yes. Stephanie Brown was Robin during the Batman: War Games crossover. This question is asking whether or not you consider Stephanie Brown to be a true Robin alongside Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, and Damian Wayne.

Discuss!

And the last previous response was posted back in August of 2017.

So, four years later, has anybody who previously responded had a change of opinion since then? And for people who never posted in this thread before, what do you think?

As for the poll, with 115 people having previously voted,

* No, she was not defined by the mantle as were the other Robins = 68 votes
* Yes, her time in the tights makes her as much of a Robin as the rest of the boys! = 47 votes

[Dataweaver]

NOTE: This thread was originally started back in April of 2017.

--------------------------

And the last previous response was posted back in August of 2017.

So, four years later, has anybody who previously responded had a change of opinion since then? And for people who never posted in this thread before, what do you think?

As for the poll, with 115 people having previously voted,

* No, she was not defined by the mantle as were the other Robins = 68 votes
* Yes, her time in the tights makes her as much of a Robin as the rest of the boys! = 47 votes

DC now apparently considers her to be a “True Robin”: she got included in the Robin 80-year special, complete with her own story; and she's included in the “Robins” pitch that recently went through a popularity contest for “which title(s?) should we publish next?” (I'm not aware of who won; but that's not the point.) It tends to render this poll kind of moot.

[Zorkel567]

DC now apparently considers her to be a “True Robin”: she got included in the Robin 80-year special, complete with her own story; and she's included in the “Robins” pitch that recently went through a popularity contest for “which title(s?) should we publish next?” (I'm not aware of who won; but that's not the point.) It tends to render this poll kind of moot.

Robins did end up winning, and will begin publishing in either November or December. A couple issues have already been solicited.

Stephanie also got to appear in the "Robins" issue of the ongoing Robin series, coming to find Damian alongside Dick, Jason, and Tim.