View Poll Results: Do you consider Stephanie Brown to be a true Robin?

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  • Yes, her time in the tights makes her as much of a Robin as the rest of the boys!

    81 50.00%
  • No, she was not defined by the mantle as were the other Robins.

    81 50.00%
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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    It was more than just Teen Titans - Steph starred in Detective Comics and Batgirl as well.

    I also think that saying Steph "sucked at it" is incorrect - she did quite well until Batman's unreasonable expectation of "no disobedience" (which he never enforced for any of the other Robins) was broken.

    Steph being Robin was indeed meant to be a temporary gimmick, but as I've pointed out before, at least one of the creators involved (Willingham) thought it had much more long term potential, and asked if it could be extended and her death cancelled. I believe that indicates a lot about her potential in the role. A lot of things in comics were originally intended as temporary gimmicks, and they caught the imaginations of fans and creators. I think it's clear at this point that while not the most popular of these types of things, Steph as Robin definitely has some traction.
    Yes, at one point the writer thought it had more potential and thought it could be more than a gimmick. But he was turned down. It could`ve been more. But it wasn't. It was nothing more than a gimmick. Never meant to last and not considered to be an actual tenure. I like Stephanie, but if your either considered a main Robin or your not, at least in my opinion. You are either at the same status of Dick, Jason, Tim or Damien or you are not Robin. Her character can skip that role and she would be unchanged. The same cannot be said for the others.
    Last edited by Iclifton; 12-03-2021 at 11:56 AM.

  2. #212
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    Yes, at one point the writer thought it had more potential and thought it could be more than a gimmick. But he was turned down. It could`ve been more. But it wasn't. It was nothing more than a gimmick. Never meant to last and not considered to be an actual tenure. I like Stephanie, but if your either considered a main Robin or your not, at least in my opinion. You are either at the same status of Dick, Jason, Tim or Damien or you are not Robin. Her character can skip that role and she would be unchanged. The same cannot be said for the others.
    I agree that you are either considered a main Robin or you are not. I consider Steph a main Robin, and I think DC currently does as well. I hope I've shown that I understand that here tenure is different than Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian's, but also why I think it's different from the We Are Robins, etc.

    However, I would say that it is simply incorrect to say that Steph "can skip the role and she would be unchanged." War Games, for all its problems, is a defining story for Steph, and I firmly believe that guilt for how poorly editorial treated her was a huge part of why she was given the Batgirl role for two years, despite other characters (Babs, Misfit, a few others) being seriously considered (see the Editor's Note included on this page: https://stephaniebrown.fandom.com/wiki/Batgirl_Vol_3_2). Without the prominence and sense of deliberately thwarted potential coming from her cut-short time as Robin, I think Steph would have stayed Spoiler when she was brought back in 2008. Instead, she became Batgirl, and reached a whole new audience.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I agree that you are either considered a main Robin or you are not. I consider Steph a main Robin, and I think DC currently does as well. I hope I've shown that I understand that here tenure is different than Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian's, but also why I think it's different from the We Are Robins, etc.

    However, I would say that it is simply incorrect to say that Steph "can skip the role and she would be unchanged." War Games, for all its problems, is a defining story for Steph, and I firmly believe that guilt for how poorly editorial treated her was a huge part of why she was given the Batgirl role for two years, despite other characters (Babs, Misfit, a few others) being seriously considered (see the Editor's Note included on this page: https://stephaniebrown.fandom.com/wiki/Batgirl_Vol_3_2). Without the prominence and sense of deliberately thwarted potential coming from her cut-short time as Robin, I think Steph would have stayed Spoiler when she was brought back in 2008. Instead, she became Batgirl, and reached a whole new audience.
    I understand you see the difference, I just feel you are either on their level or you aren`t Robin.

    The thing is, War Games is not really important. To be honest, until recently, everyone kinda wanted to sweep it under the rug. You can adapt or tell a great Stephanie story and completely exclude her time and Robin and the character would in essence be no different. Where as the others that cannot be said. In my opinion, to be considered a true Robin, it must be a fundamental piece of your character and history.

    i do not even dislike the idea of her being a true Robin. I just do not feel that that is what happened. Her time as Robin was more a piece of Tim`s history than anything.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iclifton View Post
    I understand you see the difference, I just feel you are either on their level or you aren`t Robin.

    The thing is, War Games is not really important. To be honest, until recently, everyone kinda wanted to sweep it under the rug. You can adapt or tell a great Stephanie story and completely exclude her time and Robin and the character would in essence be no different. Where as the others that cannot be said. In my opinion, to be considered a true Robin, it must be a fundamental piece of your character and history.

    i do not even dislike the idea of her being a true Robin. I just do not feel that that is what happened. Her time as Robin was more a piece of Tim`s history than anything.
    I think War Games is a fundamental part of Steph's history, though I would tend to agree that most people do try to forget it happened on a Batfamily perspective - though it definitely impacted Babs and the Birds of Prey a lot by blowing up the clocktower.

    If you didn't enjoy Steph's time as Robin, and see it as more part of Tim's journey - that's not incorrect, I just think it's incomplete. But one of the first comics I read in 2005-2006 was the War Drums/War Games storyline in trades, and I really felt Steph was setup as a character who would "level up" in the story by learning from her huge mistakes, and DC decided to kill her off in a massively stupid choice instead. So to me, Steph's time as Robin is not just important, but it was literally introductory to me for her character.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
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  5. #215
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    People want to forget War Games because it was an all-around bad story that made no sense and which even the people writing it hated at the time. The fact that it is such a big 'turning point' for Steph is one of the problems with it, because it throws out all the character development she had before then and invalidates everything she'd ever done. It reset her development to day 1, invalidating everything she'd learned working with Tim, Bruce, and Cass, and made one editorially mandated mistake overshadow and invalidate every good thing she'd ever done and every person she'd ever saved. It turns a few out of character moments into defining features she needs to grow from

    On every level, the plot-induced stupidity makes War Games terrible. Tim starts ghosting his girlfriend the moment he starts having all the free time in the world since he's retired. Bruce tries to get Tim back by making him jealous, completely ignoring and not addressing the factor that made Tim retire in the first place, his father learning the truth. Bruce has apparently not upgraded his cyber-security since Ra's Al Ghul stole his files on the Justice League since a teenage girl who in the pre-Nu52 continuity had no technology skills whatsoever was able to do the exact same thing Ra's had done with extreme ease. Steph's plan to get back in Batman's good graces was so stupid no character would do it except under editorial mandate, and the fact that Batman had ever considered such a plan was just as stupid. The whole story only works as a deconstruction of Batman in which he is a complete an utter failure who does more harm than good for Gotham since even though he's been operating for so long in Gotham the mob was still so powerful that a simple gang war could get that bad.

    I'm pretty surprised with how DC is trying to make her into a 'real Robin' currently. On the one hand, it seems that the post-Didio DC is fully aware of how big a mistake it was not to treat her as a real Robin and then kill her off in the early 2000s, trading what would have been a long-term sales bonanza with an exciting character as the first-female Robin for short-term shock value. On the other, there's not much point to acknowledging her time as Robin even in the current 'everything happened' continuity or lack thereof. He presence isn't going to increase sales of Robins - though I am only buying it because she's in it. And acknowledging her history as a Robin isn't going to increase sales of the Batgirls book either. The only way for DC to benefit sales-wise is to go all-out and make her the current Robin with the marketing push she would have gotten in 2004 if DC hadn't been so stupid then.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    People want to forget War Games because it was an all-around bad story that made no sense and which even the people writing it hated at the time. The fact that it is such a big 'turning point' for Steph is one of the problems with it, because it throws out all the character development she had before then and invalidates everything she'd ever done. It reset her development to day 1, invalidating everything she'd learned working with Tim, Bruce, and Cass, and made one editorially mandated mistake overshadow and invalidate every good thing she'd ever done and every person she'd ever saved. It turns a few out of character moments into defining features she needs to grow from

    On every level, the plot-induced stupidity makes War Games terrible. Tim starts ghosting his girlfriend the moment he starts having all the free time in the world since he's retired. Bruce tries to get Tim back by making him jealous, completely ignoring and not addressing the factor that made Tim retire in the first place, his father learning the truth. Bruce has apparently not upgraded his cyber-security since Ra's Al Ghul stole his files on the Justice League since a teenage girl who in the pre-Nu52 continuity had no technology skills whatsoever was able to do the exact same thing Ra's had done with extreme ease. Steph's plan to get back in Batman's good graces was so stupid no character would do it except under editorial mandate, and the fact that Batman had ever considered such a plan was just as stupid. The whole story only works as a deconstruction of Batman in which he is a complete an utter failure who does more harm than good for Gotham since even though he's been operating for so long in Gotham the mob was still so powerful that a simple gang war could get that bad.

    I'm pretty surprised with how DC is trying to make her into a 'real Robin' currently. On the one hand, it seems that the post-Didio DC is fully aware of how big a mistake it was not to treat her as a real Robin and then kill her off in the early 2000s, trading what would have been a long-term sales bonanza with an exciting character as the first-female Robin for short-term shock value. On the other, there's not much point to acknowledging her time as Robin even in the current 'everything happened' continuity or lack thereof. He presence isn't going to increase sales of Robins - though I am only buying it because she's in it. And acknowledging her history as a Robin isn't going to increase sales of the Batgirls book either. The only way for DC to benefit sales-wise is to go all-out and make her the current Robin with the marketing push she would have gotten in 2004 if DC hadn't been so stupid then.
    While I like Steph, i don't think DC could benefit sales-wise from making her the main Robin, no matter how much marketing push she gets. Damian is one of DC's most successful diversity character, and his series is one of DC's best selling ongoings right now, surpassing most of the justice leaguers. DC won't benefit either in PR or in sales by replacing their half Asian-Arab and very popular Robin for a female Robin again. The timing to make her the main Robin had long passed.
    Right now she just regained her Batgirl mantle again, so it's probably best to focus on that and see if the Batgirls series succeed.

  7. #217
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    People want to forget War Games because it was an all-around bad story that made no sense and which even the people writing it hated at the time. The fact that it is such a big 'turning point' for Steph is one of the problems with it, because it throws out all the character development she had before then and invalidates everything she'd ever done. It reset her development to day 1, invalidating everything she'd learned working with Tim, Bruce, and Cass, and made one editorially mandated mistake overshadow and invalidate every good thing she'd ever done and every person she'd ever saved. It turns a few out of character moments into defining features she needs to grow from

    On every level, the plot-induced stupidity makes War Games terrible. Tim starts ghosting his girlfriend the moment he starts having all the free time in the world since he's retired. Bruce tries to get Tim back by making him jealous, completely ignoring and not addressing the factor that made Tim retire in the first place, his father learning the truth. Bruce has apparently not upgraded his cyber-security since Ra's Al Ghul stole his files on the Justice League since a teenage girl who in the pre-Nu52 continuity had no technology skills whatsoever was able to do the exact same thing Ra's had done with extreme ease. Steph's plan to get back in Batman's good graces was so stupid no character would do it except under editorial mandate, and the fact that Batman had ever considered such a plan was just as stupid. The whole story only works as a deconstruction of Batman in which he is a complete an utter failure who does more harm than good for Gotham since even though he's been operating for so long in Gotham the mob was still so powerful that a simple gang war could get that bad.

    I'm pretty surprised with how DC is trying to make her into a 'real Robin' currently. On the one hand, it seems that the post-Didio DC is fully aware of how big a mistake it was not to treat her as a real Robin and then kill her off in the early 2000s, trading what would have been a long-term sales bonanza with an exciting character as the first-female Robin for short-term shock value. On the other, there's not much point to acknowledging her time as Robin even in the current 'everything happened' continuity or lack thereof. He presence isn't going to increase sales of Robins - though I am only buying it because she's in it. And acknowledging her history as a Robin isn't going to increase sales of the Batgirls book either. The only way for DC to benefit sales-wise is to go all-out and make her the current Robin with the marketing push she would have gotten in 2004 if DC hadn't been so stupid then.
    War Games still has fans. I don't meet them as often as I meet people who agree with me that it was terrible (though I do think there are aspects of it that were very interesting, and if they'd actually followed through with the logical, organic structure they were setting up and have Steph level up by learning from her mistakes instead of killing her off, I think it actually would be relatively fine, though killing off Orpheus was also really dumb). I'm not convinced it truly throws out all of Steph's character development, though it does definitely have her repeat some things she's learned before (in the Tec story with Zsasz, particularly).

    My personal biggest plot hole in War Games is the fact that Batman is able to recognize that what is happening is his War Games plan, even though the plan itself went wrong from the beginning since Matches Malone didn't show up. How can a plan be so recognizable if it goes wrong from the start? I have no clue whatsoever.

    I'm a bit surprised that you say the Robins miniseries won't have more sales because Steph is in it, when you also say you're only buying it because she's in it. I'm the same way, so that's two sales it wouldn't have had otherwise! Perhaps not tens of thousands, but I'd bet thousands of sales are at least influenced by her inclusion.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord

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