Is Stephanie Brown a True Robin?

[Fergus]

I'm not the one talking like the characters are doing things beyond the control of their creators. As for believing that Dan Didio has animosity towards Stephanie Brown...if you can look at her history from War Games to the n52 and say that he doesn't, then...

Aside from letting go of the conspiracy theories you need to also brush up on mockery and when people are just kidding/.

[millernumber1]

Aside from letting go of the conspiracy theories you need to also brush up on mockery and when people are just kidding/.

If one refuses to indicate that there is a joke, I don't see why I have to be aware of it. That's why we have emoticons.

[Fergus]

If one refuses to indicate that there is a joke, I don't see why I have to be aware of it. That's why we have emoticons.

So you decide to jump straight to the insulting this guy must be so crazy they believe characters are real That wasn't nice especially coming from someone who was just chastising another for saying people need their head checked

[millernumber1]

Use the tools available to you to communicate your jokes and you won't have a problem.

If you would like some clarification - I do not assume that you are crazy and believe that the Batfamily are real people. I think speaking as if they are is unhelpful in a discussion of out of universe perception.

[Dataweaver]

Carrie Kelley was not a Robin. She was a girl that tutored Damian in acting, and who was seen in a Robin costume at a Halloween party. Her brief appearances in the Grief storyline after Damian's death didn't go anywhere, and may not even still be canon. The fact that she happens to share a name and arguably an appearance with a girl from an entirely different universe doesn't qualify her as a Robin, either.

Stephanie… was a substitute Robin. As much as I like the notion of Stephanie as Robin, both times that it happened was in the context of Tim having been pulled out of the Robin role (once by his father, and the other time by a reality-altering nitwit) only for Tim to come back to the role almost immediately. For the record, neither time was part of the current timeline.

So, to me, the question is whether “substitute Robin” is enough to count as “real Robin”. My gut instinct is that if you took on the role solely for the purpose of a story arc, it doesn't really count. Of the two times Steph became Robin, one was to set her up as the screw-up who would be desperate enough for Bruce's approval to do something insanely stupid; and the other was a one-shot alternate reality.

[millernumber1]

Carrie Kelley was not a Robin. She was a girl that tutored Damian in acting, and who was seen in a Robin costume at a Halloween party. Her brief appearances in the Grief storyline after Damian's death didn't go anywhere, and may not even still be canon. The fact that she happens to share a name and arguably an appearance with a girl from an entirely different universe doesn't qualify her as a Robin, either.

Stephanie… was a substitute Robin. As much as I like the notion of Stephanie as Robin, both times that it happened was in the context of Tim having been pulled out of the Robin role (once by his father, and the other time by a reality-altering nitwit) only for Tim to come back to the role almost immediately. For the record, neither time was part of the current timeline.

So, to me, the question is whether “substitute Robin” is enough to count as “real Robin”. My gut instinct is that if you took on the role solely for the purpose of a story arc, it doesn't really count. Of the two times Steph became Robin, one was to set her up as the screw-up who would be desperate enough for Bruce's approval to do something insanely stupid; and the other was a one-shot alternate reality.

Your perspective is one of authorial intent - which as an anti-deconstructionist I generally philosophically agree with. However, I think Korath said it best: "do you like(d) Steph as a Robin ? If yes, yeah, she was a "true" Robin. Otherwise, she wasn't."

Fundamentally, there are some readers who may like the idea of Steph as Robin, as you say, but cannot divorce her time as Robin and the idea of her as Robin from the context of it being a betrayal by the writers and editors, a cheap trick to make her death hurt more. And that's a totally valid perspective. But my own is that Steph's time as Robin brings great joy to my life, so she is definitely Robin.

(Also: A++ on knowing your stuff!)

[phantom1592]

Yeah, I'll never consider her a true Robin anymore than I would consider Alfred a True Batman. He spent as much time in the suit as she did... She probably COULD have been a true Robin, but that's not how the story went. She wore it for only a month or two and was immediately fired... then she died as Spoiler, not Robin... so yeah...

It doesn't feel 'real'

Didn't she even show up and demand to be Robin while Tim was gone? Bruce didn't train her, or pick her... he just decided to go with it till he decided she wasn't cut out for it.

Bruce was deep into some serious mind-games with Tim at the time between revealing Robin's identity to her after Forbidding Tim to tell the 'secret'.. and then letting her be Robin while he was retired and immediatiely taking Tim back when he came back... Bruce was a jerk in those days, and Steph was just a pawn to him.

[millernumber1]

Yeah, I'll never consider her a true Robin anymore than I would consider Alfred a True Batman. He spent as much time in the suit as she did... She probably COULD have been a true Robin, but that's not how the story went. She wore it for only a month or two and was immediately fired... then she died as Spoiler, not Robin... so yeah...

It doesn't feel 'real'

Didn't she even show up and demand to be Robin while Tim was gone? Bruce didn't train her, or pick her... he just decided to go with it till he decided she wasn't cut out for it.

Bruce was deep into some serious mind-games with Tim at the time between revealing Robin's identity to her after Forbidding Tim to tell the 'secret'.. and then letting her be Robin while he was retired and immediatiely taking Tim back when he came back... Bruce was a jerk in those days, and Steph was just a pawn to him.

Three months. Three issues as the title character of the series. Three tie-in issues where her appearance was hyped on the cover. Two appearances years later in issues that reference these events (Solo #10 and Brave and the Bold #13), and at least two covers/variants. Alfred has been Batman for 4 pages and zero covers. I think there's a real difference there, even if I do accept that Bruce only intended Steph to be Robin temporarily.

And whatever Bruce or the writers intended, I think it's clear that Steph was committed to being Robin for the long haul.

As for dying as Spoiler...I point you to the aforementioned cover of War Crimes.

Bruce did train her brutally - that was the whole first issue of her time in the tights. And the issue of Detective Comics where she starred as Robin was also about him training her as a detective and as a hero.

And why does Bruce being a jerk to Steph mean Steph wasn't really Robin?

[phantom1592]

Three months. Three issues as the title character of the series. Three tie-in issues where her appearance was hyped on the cover. Two appearances years later in issues that reference these events (Solo #10 and Brave and the Bold #13), and at least two covers/variants. Alfred has been Batman for 4 pages and zero covers. I think there's a real difference there, even if I do accept that Bruce only intended Steph to be Robin temporarily.

And whatever Bruce or the writers intended, I think it's clear that Steph was committed to being Robin for the long haul.

As for dying as Spoiler...I point you to the aforementioned cover of War Crimes.

Bruce did train her brutally - that was the whole first issue of her time in the tights. And the issue of Detective Comics where she starred as Robin was also about him training her as a detective and as a hero.

And why does Bruce being a jerk to Steph mean Steph wasn't really Robin?

Also, the book never Really stopped being about Tim. You have 126 issues of Tim being Robin, 3 issues with Tim trying to have a normal life and seeing life without Robin in it... and then he's back. The hero's journey is still about Tim. Steph's journey was a failure The story took three issues to tell there, but only one in Teen Titans... It was never a true changing of the guard. She never really got past orientation.

[millernumber1]

Also, the book never Really stopped being about Tim. You have 126 issues of Tim being Robin, 3 issues with Tim trying to have a normal life and seeing life without Robin in it... and then he's back. The hero's journey is still about Tim. Steph's journey was a failure The story took three issues to tell there, but only one in Teen Titans... It was never a true changing of the guard. She never really got past orientation.

I don't want to overstate what actually happened, but Steph did get her own heroic journey in the War Drums/Games crossover. It was more than just orientation. I think it would be better to be precise about what actually is on the page, rather than making impressionistic overstatements either way. That's why I cited specific issues and covers, rather than making an analogy to what Steph's time as Robin was like.

If you want, I could do a page number breakdown of the issues leading up to War Drums, the issues themselves, but I think it's clear that Steph is the lead of Robin while she's Robin. Tim is definitely poised to come back as the lead, but saying that she's not the protagonist for her three issues isn't true.

[Dataweaver]

To be fair, the book had basically been “The Tim and Steph Show” since Jon Lewis had taken over in #100, over two years earlier. Willingham was changing that, but it still wasn't unusual for the book to shift attention to Stephanie for a few issues.

[MajorHoy]

NOTE: This thread was originally started back in April of 2017.

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. . . it is time to kick up some dirt. It’s time to debate! The internet has never successfully changed anybody’s opinions before, but we can always try!

When the “Robins” (Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian) are discussed collectively here on this forum (as they often are) I have noticed a surfacing response that Stephanie Brown’s tenure as Robin is equal in merit to Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian. As such, these posters consider Stephanie to be “one of the Robins.” What do you think CBR? Do you consider Stephanie Brown to be a Robin (one of “the boys” so to speak)?

This isn’t a question of whether Stephanie Brown was Robin. The answer to that question is unequivocally yes. Stephanie Brown was Robin during the Batman: War Games crossover. This question is asking whether or not you consider Stephanie Brown to be a true Robin alongside Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, and Damian Wayne.

Discuss!

And the last previous response was posted back in August of 2017.

So, four years later, has anybody who previously responded had a change of opinion since then? And for people who never posted in this thread before, what do you think?

As for the poll, with 115 people having previously voted,

* No, she was not defined by the mantle as were the other Robins = 68 votes
* Yes, her time in the tights makes her as much of a Robin as the rest of the boys! = 47 votes

[Dataweaver]

NOTE: This thread was originally started back in April of 2017.

--------------------------

And the last previous response was posted back in August of 2017.

So, four years later, has anybody who previously responded had a change of opinion since then? And for people who never posted in this thread before, what do you think?

As for the poll, with 115 people having previously voted,

* No, she was not defined by the mantle as were the other Robins = 68 votes
* Yes, her time in the tights makes her as much of a Robin as the rest of the boys! = 47 votes

DC now apparently considers her to be a “True Robin”: she got included in the Robin 80-year special, complete with her own story; and she's included in the “Robins” pitch that recently went through a popularity contest for “which title(s?) should we publish next?” (I'm not aware of who won; but that's not the point.) It tends to render this poll kind of moot.

[Zorkel567]

DC now apparently considers her to be a “True Robin”: she got included in the Robin 80-year special, complete with her own story; and she's included in the “Robins” pitch that recently went through a popularity contest for “which title(s?) should we publish next?” (I'm not aware of who won; but that's not the point.) It tends to render this poll kind of moot.

Robins did end up winning, and will begin publishing in either November or December. A couple issues have already been solicited.

Stephanie also got to appear in the "Robins" issue of the ongoing Robin series, coming to find Damian alongside Dick, Jason, and Tim.

[millernumber1]

Goodness, I remember these discussions.

And I still think Steph was a True Robin. Part of the Legend. And I'm sure I said that in the thread 4 years ago too.