Is Stephanie Brown a True Robin?

[Assam]

Is the same with the batgirls... Barbara Gordon? I consider Steph and Cass Batgirls too(I don´t see Helena as Batgirl, for that I don´t mention her) because both girls used the mantle of batgirl..

There's no debate about Steph and Cass being Batgirl. People can try and argue that Steph doesn't count as a Robin or that JPV doesn't count as Batman (Even if I obviously don't agree), but trying to argue that Steph and Cass don't count as Batgirl is like trying to argue that Dick and Jason don't count as Robin. The status of Helena, Charlie and Bette as Batgirls is what's debatable. (The only one I DEFINITELY don't count is Helena, as she never called herself Batgirl.)

Why don't you think of Damian as Batman may I ask?

If you want to get really technical, Tim, Jason and Cass have all been shown as Batman at least once as well.

[Fergus]

There's no debate about Steph and Cass being Batgirl. People can try and argue that Steph doesn't count as a Robin or that JPV doesn't count as Batman (Even if I obviously don't agree), but trying to argue that Steph and Cass don't count as Batgirl is like trying to argue that Dick and Jason don't count as Robin. The status of Helena, Charlie and Bette as Batgirls is what's debatable. (The only one I DEFINITELY don't count is Helena, as she never called herself Batgirl.)



If you want to get really technical, Tim, Jason and Cass have all been shown as Batman at least once as well.

Exactly so shouldn't they all be Considered Batman. Steph is a fantastic character but personally her inclusion just like the Robin kids devalues the role Just like calling Cass Damian, T** and Jason cheapens the mantle of the Bat.

[theoneandonly]

I dont know whether she has gained the distinction of being the first femme robin or not but she sure has gained this distinction.

[Fergus]

I dont know whether she has gained the distinction of being the first femme robin or not but she sure has gained this distinction.

Jason Todd did this ions before Steph was a thing fyi.

Yes @assam I was wrong Tec isn't at all pandering.

[millernumber1]

I don't think this poll is indicative if comic readers. When you talk about what it means to be Robin adding Steph to that makes the whole thing less special but sadly this is the reality of the bat family these days. . What was once exclusive and meaningful is now pretty much open to the masses.

It's so non exclusive that the popular kids like Dick, Damian and Jason have distanced themselves.

...

It's true that comic readers are a much larger bunch than CBR posters. What's your point, though? Fandom isn't a democracy except by sales, and even that's pretty tricky to track.

If you think Steph being Robin makes it less special, then so does Jason, Tim, and Damian. There's nothing in Steph's tenure as Robin that devalues the role of Robin - it's still probably the second most loved role in the Batfamily.

Saying that because Dick and Jason (and Tim, by the way) have taken different names that it's because of some kind of weird high school status thing is...really bizarre.

Why don't you think of Damian as Batman may I ask?

I liked that Brave and the Bold issue but the fact is that if count Steph then do you count Duke and the we are Robin kids?

Hmm. I probably should include Damian as Batman. But if I did, I'd also add Carrie Kelley (from Dark Knight 3).

Duke isn't Robin in my brain. He's Lark, because that's my favorite name for him. We'll see if he can earn my love as Signal, but so far, he doesn't have a strong enough identity. Same thing with the We Are Robin book (not the kids - they were great characters). But that book wanted to push some kind of Occupy Batman movement, and failed pretty miserably at showing how it would work or what was going on. It was such a great potential concept, but didn't go anywhere good, sadly, mostly because of pretty crummy writing. (Also, re: Duke as Robin - he ends Robin War saying "I'm not Robin," and he later takes a huge garbage dump all over Robin by saying "Robin doesn't need Batman" and "Batman doesn't need Robin," so I'm incredibly furious about that and don't connect him with that legacy at all. Steph, whatever you think of her time in the tights, loved Robin and being Robin, and thought it was really meaningful. She would never disrespect the role that way.)

There's no debate about Steph and Cass being Batgirl. People can try and argue that Steph doesn't count as a Robin or that JPV doesn't count as Batman (Even if I obviously don't agree), but trying to argue that Steph and Cass don't count as Batgirl is like trying to argue that Dick and Jason don't count as Robin. The status of Helena, Charlie and Bette as Batgirls is what's debatable. (The only one I DEFINITELY don't count is Helena, as she never called herself Batgirl.)

If you want to get really technical, Tim, Jason and Cass have all been shown as Batman at least once as well.

Yeah, I don't count Helena, Charlie, Bette, Carrie, or Nissa really as Batgirls (though I'm very excited to read the Batman Beyond issue featuring Nissa soon!) They never headlined a book as that role, as Babs, Cass, and Steph have done. (Also: I consider Steph's three issues of Robin as headlining that title in the title role, which is part of how I consider my evaluation consistent.)

Fans of all of these characters - please don't take this as me hating on any of them. I love each and every one of these characters.

Exactly so shouldn't they all be Considered Batman. Steph is a fantastic character but personally her inclusion just like the Robin kids devalues the role Just like calling Cass Damian, T** and Jason cheapens the mantle of the Bat.

The reason I love the Bat and the Bird is because they are inspirational - and the legacy of many characters taking on the mantles is that inspiration in action. Far from cheapening them, I think the more legacy the roles have, the more meaningful they are.

[oasis1313]

Steph wore the costume, she worked officially with Batman in that capacity, she bled for it--she deserves to be considered a Robin.

[Fergus]

...

It's true that comic readers are a much larger bunch than CBR posters. What's your point, though? Fandom isn't a democracy except by sales, and even that's pretty tricky to track.

If you think Steph being Robin makes it less special, then so does Jason, Tim, and Damian. There's nothing in Steph's tenure as Robin that devalues the role of Robin - it's still probably the second most loved role in the Batfamily.

Saying that because Dick and Jason (and Tim, by the way) have taken different names that it's because of some kind of weird high school status thing is...really bizarre.

The Robin means has nothing to do with how beloved it is. The fact that you are thinking along those lines means that you don't view the role from the same ale as me and the new poster.

The popular kids leaving the new non exclusive Batfamily is nothing to do with them changing their names I mean that things in the "Batfamily" are so messed up the core members have left are never seen with anywhere near the Batman or the overcrowded cave.


Your opinion on the we are Robin kids is valid just as any opinion on Steph as Robin she had as much if not less impact in that role.

[Fergus]

Steph wore the costume, she worked officially with Batman in that capacity, she bled for it--she deserves to be considered a Robin.

So did the little kid who died in WE are Robin and that kid worked with Alfred and Duke

[yohyoi]

What is a Robin? What makes the mantle "true"?

[darkseidpwns]

They are associated heavily with the role and contributed something to it.

[millernumber1]

Steph wore the costume, she worked officially with Batman in that capacity, she bled for it--she deserves to be considered a Robin.

Agreed. Well said.

The Robin means has nothing to do with how beloved it is. The fact that you are thinking along those lines means that you don't view the role from the same ale as me and the new poster.

The popular kids leaving the new non exclusive Batfamily is nothing to do with them changing their names I mean that things in the "Batfamily" are so messed up the core members have left are never seen with anywhere near the Batman or the overcrowded cave.

Your opinion on the we are Robin kids is valid just as any opinion on Steph as Robin she had as much if not less impact in that role.

1) Um. That's really confusing. I can't tell what you're trying to say.

2) It's not a crime to have different opinions on fictional characters. And voicing those different opinions on a thread asking for them is...pretty normal.

3) the "popular" kids "leaving" the "non-exclusive" Batfamily - I swear, you think comics characters are real and act like they're in high school at a dance. First, comics characters are not real. Second, the specific comics characters are not making choices based on whether Steph or Duke or Troy was Robin. They're making decisions because of how the writers are choosing to write them. Third, how does it hurt you if Steph was Robin. How does it hurt you if I think Steph was Robin? You've said you don't think she was. Sure, fine. But to say that you think anyone else is wrong in the head because they think differently than you about fictional characters is...not cool.

4) Steph definitely had more impact than the We Are Robin kids, because her firing and death were an indicator to a significant part of fandom - a crystallization of what was wrong with the Bat books at the time.

5) DC featured a picture of Steph, dead in the Robin costume, as the cover of War Crimes. Is it proof? No. Does it indicate that Steph's impact as Robin was significant? Yup. Did it impact you? No, and that's fine. But don't try to erase fans like me who love her as Robin.

So did the little kid who died in WE are Robin and that kid worked with Alfred and Duke

I love Troy! But did Troy get a cover? Did he headline the series Robin (or even the series We Are Robin)? No. There is an empirical difference between Troy and Steph.

What is a Robin? What makes the mantle "true"?

The OP is pretty clear on that, I think. I disagree with OP's conclusion, but I think the question and their phrasing is pretty solid.

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

Jason Todd did this ions before Steph was a thing fyi.

Yes @assam I was wrong Tec isn't at all pandering.

Dick did punch back despite that internet meme.

[Fergus]

Agreed. Well said.



1) Um. That's really confusing. I can't tell what you're trying to say.

2) It's not a crime to have different opinions on fictional characters. And voicing those different opinions on a thread asking for them is...pretty normal.

3) the "popular" kids "leaving" the "non-exclusive" Batfamily - I swear, you think comics characters are real and act like they're in high school at a dance. First, comics characters are not real. Second, the specific comics characters are not making choices based on whether Steph or Duke or Troy was Robin. They're making decisions because of how the writers are choosing to write them. Third, how does it hurt you if Steph was Robin. How does it hurt you if I think Steph was Robin? You've said you don't think she was. Sure, fine. But to say that you think anyone else is wrong in the head because they think differently than you about fictional characters is...not cool.

4) Steph definitely had more impact than the We Are Robin kids, because her firing and death were an indicator to a significant part of fandom - a crystallization of what was wrong with the Bat books at the time.

5) DC featured a picture of Steph, dead in the Robin costume, as the cover of War Crimes. Is it proof? No. Does it indicate that Steph's impact as Robin was significant? Yup. Did it impact you? No, and that's fine. But don't try to erase fans like me who love her as Robin.



I love Troy! But did Troy get a cover? Did he headline the series Robin (or even the series We Are Robin)? No. There is an empirical difference between Troy and Steph.



The OP is pretty clear on that, I think. I disagree with OP's conclusion, but I think the question and their phrasing is pretty solid.

You think I think Comic characters are real? Well that's rich coming from someone who devotes their everything to one fictional character and at least I don't believe DC editorial is out to get my favourites fictional character or has some kind of vendetta against them.

[Korath]

Does this question really matters ? I don't think so. Mainly because what "Robin" is and how integral a character is to it (and the larger Batman mythos) is mostly an individual impression (personnally, while I can't deny that Tim Drake is deeply rooted in the Robin's persona, I don't think that it is for the betterment of "Robin" or the Batman mythos in general). So, even acknowledging a character's "Robiness" isn't equating them being perfect or anything.

So that answer is : do you like(d) Steph as a Robin ? If yes, yeah, she was a "true" Robin. Otherwise, she wasn't.

[millernumber1]

You think I think Comic characters are real? Well that's rich coming from someone who devotes their everything to one fictional character and at least I don't believe DC editorial is out to get my favourites fictional character or has some kind of vendetta against them.

I'm not the one talking like the characters are doing things beyond the control of their creators. As for believing that Dan Didio has animosity towards Stephanie Brown...if you can look at her history from War Games to the n52 and say that he doesn't, then...

Does this question really matters ? I don't think so. Mainly because what "Robin" ease and how integral a character is to it (and the larger Batman mythos) is mostly an individual impression (personnally, while I can't deny that Tim Drake is deeply rooted in the Robin's persona, I don't think that it is for the bettermen of "Robin" or the Batman mythos in general). So, even acknowledging a character's "Robiness" isn't equating them being perfact or anything.

So that answer is ; do you like(d) Steph as a Robin ? If yes, yeah, she was a "true" Robin. Otherwise, she wasn't.

Interesting summation. But I completely agree with your last two sentences - and that's what it comes down to, I think.