Is Stephanie Brown a True Robin?

[Adam Allen]

She was created as Spoiler, but killed off as Robin. If she'd been brought back like one or two issues later, I'd say whatever for that, but wasn't she dead for like years? A retcon doesn't erase that kind of thing in the minds of fans.

I would also say she's significant to the role/mantle of Robin, because I think her being killed off while in that role was a good bit of what did not sit right with folks. Probably the most flagrant woman-in-refrigerator moment in comics history, because Jason's death was cast as this super-rare and tragic instance in the history of the Bat-family, and it should -- because how many kids would need to get murdered under this guy's watch, before he starts to look a bit less awesome? -- while Stephanie's death was more kind of a "my bad" kind of thing, as far as how important it was to the overall Bat-mythos.

I think that makes her a pretty important Robin though, because it was because she had been a Robin, however briefly, that made people say that shoving her in a fridge was not okay.

[phantom1592]

She was created as Spoiler, but killed off as Robin. If she'd been brought back like one or two issues later, I'd say whatever for that, but wasn't she dead for like years? A retcon doesn't erase that kind of thing in the minds of fans.

But WAS she killed as a Robin? My search-fu is pretty weak and I didn't read War Games... but I've seen is that she was Spoiler when she died, and Tim was back as Robin.

[millernumber1]

But WAS she killed as a Robin? My search-fu is pretty weak and I didn't read War Games... but I've seen is that she was Spoiler when she died, and Tim was back as Robin.

In strict chronology, you are correct, Steph was killed in the Spoiler costume. HOWEVER, 1) she was killed as a direct result of her being Robin; 2) Bill Willingham knew what was up. He knew if they put her in the pixie boots and then killed her, no matter what costume she was wearing, DC had another dead Robin on their hands, and 3) War Crimes:

Detective Comics #809 pg00.jpg

If you want to argue that Steph wasn't killed as Robin, you are technically correct. However, I think it's very sensible to say she died as Robin, and because she was Robin.

[millernumber1]

She was created as Spoiler, but killed off as Robin. If she'd been brought back like one or two issues later, I'd say whatever for that, but wasn't she dead for like years? A retcon doesn't erase that kind of thing in the minds of fans.

I would also say she's significant to the role/mantle of Robin, because I think her being killed off while in that role was a good bit of what did not sit right with folks. Probably the most flagrant woman-in-refrigerator moment in comics history, because Jason's death was cast as this super-rare and tragic instance in the history of the Bat-family, and it should -- because how many kids would need to get murdered under this guy's watch, before he starts to look a bit less awesome? -- while Stephanie's death was more kind of a "my bad" kind of thing, as far as how important it was to the overall Bat-mythos.

I think that makes her a pretty important Robin though, because it was because she had been a Robin, however briefly, that made people say that shoving her in a fridge was not okay.

Well said. Another important point: Steph was Robin in the AU issue of Robin, #101, where Tim was a normal kid, and Steph had been Robin the whole time (with a mask very like her n52 Spoiler mask!)

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If DC had let her be Robin for three issue plus three tie-in issues, and then fired her - OR even better, not gotten rid of Chuck Dixon, and let him do his six issue run with Steph as Robin while Tim became Blue Beetle's sidekick, the whole "is Steph Robin" issue wouldn't be an issue. (Also, she probably wouldn't have died.) However, they chose to kill her off in the worst way possible - in a way that made it clear the writers and Batman were treating her unfairly, generating a huge amount of sympathy (I first really became aware of her during War Games, and thought she was really sympathetic - much more so than my vague memories of her in Bruce Wayne: Murderer). If Steph had died accomplishing something heroic, like Tim's "death" in Tec recently (well, a year ago), people probably wouldn't be "fine" with it, but they would feel like she was respected. Also, she probably would have gotten a case in the cave.

Instead, we got Steph screwed over by Batman and Tim, tortured, murdered, betrayed by Batman's closest ally, and constantly blamed for her own torture and death by Batman, Onyx, Tim, Cass, and pretty much anyone and everyone who wasn't written by Gail Simone. Is it any wonder Steph fans are protective of her place in the Robin legacy?

[Doctor Bifrost]

When he was Robin? What were those?

When he ran off without Batman's permission or knowledge and got himself killed?

[Aahz]

I also go for "No".

Her time as Robin is not really relevant for her character, that why I also not really count Helena as Batgirl or Dick and JVP as Batman, they took the role for a short time and than went back to their usual identities.

[ayanestar]

I also voted "No" simply because I think of "Spoiler" and "Batgirl" first. However I like the idea of her being Robin, it could have been an interesting dynamic duo but no I do not actually count her as a real Robin.

[btmarine23]

Whether she was or wasn't, some of the fan art of her as Robin looks awesome. I personally wouldn't mind if Tynion put her into that role. The panels with Damian and Steph alone would be worth it. Its not like Damian serves as Robin…at least I don't see it.

[Martin Sinescu]

I voted "yes". Although many of you have made compelling, well-presented arguments for both sides, whatever Batman or the writers' motivations, that's just how I consider her. To me, her short time as Robin was just simply fun and her enthusiasm for the role was realistic, natural and palpable.

I had a hard time connecting with Tim initially: DC had telegraphed his intro way in advance and relatively soon after Jason's death so the whole thing read like a forced setup at the time and I just couldn't buy into the stunt. Because I read Steph's Robinization in TPB and with the foreknowledge that she was going to get killed, I knew the issues with her would be finite and approached it with more of an empathetic mindset, but I did genuinely feel her excitement through training and it was just very memorable:

tumblr_nhonveDzjK1rwjtyso1_500.jpg

*Still cracks me up*.

Her death hurt, but it was a very significant and powerful moment, especially given how things were between she and Bruce at the time. The problem for me is DC has cheapened or watered-down the role over the last few years. Each of the Robins up through Damian had their own significant niche: Dick (the original, often imitated, never equaled), Jason (originally a close copy, then they turned him rougher, more of a square peg trying to fit into a round hole, and, ultimately, the Robin that got killed), Tim (Mr. Perfect), Steph, and Damian (the heir to the throne). With only five over the course of 60-70 years, there was room for Steph as the "girl" Robin (I consider Carrie non-canon), or the failed Robin, or the "another dead Robin?" Robin, but she had a purpose in the Robin Roll Call and there was room for her in the canon timeline. Seems like now there's too many eggs in the Robins Nest and we have to start tossing some out in order to keep it tidy.

[Red obin]

As a Steph fan, I have to say yes, however, your reasoning is very logical and I agree with most of it. I believe she did earn the Robin mantle even if she was not originally intended to be one and her tenure was poorly sculpted. I believe it did define her future and (on an aside, I believe it would have worked better if she did not go back to being spoiler again as it felt like a downgrade.)

Her hair should at least be recognised as the best hair out of any Robins.
Robin_v2_126_art.jpg

[millernumber1]

As a Steph fan, I have to say yes, however, your reasoning is very logical and I agree with most of it. I believe she did earn the Robin mantle even if she was not originally intended to be one and her tenure was poorly sculpted. I believe it did define her future and (on an aside, I believe it would have worked better if she did not go back to being spoiler again as it felt like a downgrade.)

Her hair should at least be recognised as the best hair out of any Robins.
Robin_v2_126_art.jpg

I think the real question for me is - "Why do you feel the need to create a qualifier like "True Robin" when the only person it excludes is Steph?" I completely agree with you - especially about the hair. I think her design by Damion Scott is really iconic, and for that reason alone, she's inextricably tied to the Robin legend.

[Aahz]

She was created as Spoiler, but killed off as Robin. If she'd been brought back like one or two issues later, I'd say whatever for that, but wasn't she dead for like years? A retcon doesn't erase that kind of thing in the minds of fans.

I would also say she's significant to the role/mantle of Robin, because I think her being killed off while in that role was a good bit of what did not sit right with folks. Probably the most flagrant woman-in-refrigerator moment in comics history, because Jason's death was cast as this super-rare and tragic instance in the history of the Bat-family, and it should -- because how many kids would need to get murdered under this guy's watch, before he starts to look a bit less awesome? -- while Stephanie's death was more kind of a "my bad" kind of thing, as far as how important it was to the overall Bat-mythos.

I think that makes her a pretty important Robin though, because it was because she had been a Robin, however briefly, that made people say that shoving her in a fridge was not okay.

Lance Bruner started the whole dying in a Robin costume thing and he was completly erased from the continuity.
And Troy Walker and Travice Price from the we are Robin movement should they count?

[millernumber1]

Lance Bruner started the whole dying in a Robin costume thing and he was completly erased from the continuity.
And Troy Walker and Travice Price from the we are Robin movement should they count?

Well, I definitely think Troy should count, since Alfred encouraged him to do what he did. (Still bitter about The Troy Wonder's death)

[Aioros22]

When he ran off without Batman's permission or knowledge and got himself killed?

Ah, that time he was benched without being told on his face and went to seek his mother.

What knowledge? That his own mother would sold him out? That`s the similar situation to "War Games"?

[failo.legendkiller]

I voted No.
She wasn't a true Robin, Bruce never really accepted her in that role. But she was a great Batgirl and she deserves it.
It's a shame that in this continuity she's not.