Is Stephanie Brown a True Robin?

[phantom1592]

As a Steph fan, I have to say yes, however, your reasoning is very logical and I agree with most of it. I believe she did earn the Robin mantle ]

Out of curiosity, why do you feel that? Again, I didn't read the issues, but the synopsis' I've read don't impress me much.

The writing may have been poor. But it was what it was.... she had the job 3 issues, (which still seemed about Tim dealing with retirement as much as step gaining the job) got fired, and then screwed up the war games... which despite other crappy writing, I love the idea of matches Malone and anything that brings him bac, but she did try to enact a plan without knowing the key parts of the plan...the whole tenure just seems to be incompetent and show that it takes someone special to be robin...

Charactet assassination aside, did she actually have any SUCCESS as robin? What makes peopLe think she earned her place therr? What are the synopsis' leaving out?

[millernumber1]

Out of curiosity, why do you feel that? Again, I didn't read the issues, but the synopsis' I've read don't impress me much.

The writing may have been poor. But it was what it was.... she had the job 3 issues, (which still seemed about Tim dealing with retirement as much as step gaining the job) got fired, and then screwed up the war games... which despite other crappy writing, I love the idea of matches Malone and anything that brings him bac, but she did try to enact a plan without knowing the key parts of the plan...the whole tenure just seems to be incompetent and show that it takes someone special to be robin...

Charactet assassination aside, did she actually have any SUCCESS as robin? What makes peopLe think she earned her place therr? What are the synopsis' leaving out?

Well, I recommend reading them - she worked incredibly hard to earn the Robin mantle without much encouragement. Tim dealing with retirement was probably 30-70 with Steph's story, not 50-50. She also had a successful mission against Zsasz with Bruce, and a successful mission against Penguin's organization with Cass in Tec and Batgirl. If you count Batman: The Brave and the Bold (which I totally do ), she also had a successful mission against Ra's Al Ghul. The reason she didn't know the key part of the plan was because Batman refused to train her properly. I think that what it really shows is that Batman was not in a position to lead his family at this time, not that Steph wasn't worthy of the mantle. There's a reason literally every single Batfamily member left Gotham immediately after Steph's death.

[Harpsikord]

Okay, so, yes I think that Stephanie's tenure as Robin officially counts as her being a Robin, or "one of the boys" so to speak.

I see people making the argument that she was always intended to die, and that's true, but another thing I don't think people are taking into account is the fact that literally everyone involved in War Games was fighting to change the outcome of this, but editorial at the time was so against Chuck Dixon and the majority of his creations and/or work. So while it was edict that Steph was slated to die, the writers wanted Stephanie to survive and for her to be Robin and to make Robin her own mantle. I think it was Devin Grayson that said that she thought it was more than time for DC to include a female Robin among them, and that Steph was perfect for the role or something to that effect?

The other point I see people making is that Stephanie's role as Robin never exactly defined her character. That's also wrong. Her entire drive as Spoiler when she was brought back had to do with what happened when she was Robin - she wanted to prove to Bruce, and to Tim, and to everyone that she was good at this and that what happened to her as Robin, or rather right after she got fired, was a fluke. And she was right, because it was more Bruce's fault than it was her own when it comes down to it. That didn't stop when Stephanie became Batgirl. The majority of her run was defined by the fact that she still wanted to prove herself, and it was even lampshaded. Her mentor was the original Batgirl, present Oracle, Barbara Gordon. That's a woman who used "her" autopsy photos to talk the "last girl who wanted to be Batgirl" (Misfit) out of doing it. Stephanie had to prove to Babs and to Dick and to Damian that she was ready for this because of what happened to her in War Games.

The only people that believed in Stephanie when she became Batgirl were Bruce and Cassandra, and even then, Stephanie didn't know that about Bruce. She knew that Cassandra left Batgirl to her, but she didn't know why for the majority of her tenure. She had to prove herself to everyone that was important, and that was specifically because of what happened to her during War Games. She did everything she did in War Games because of what happened when she was Robin, and the only reason it didn't work is because Bruce didn't share any of his contingencies with her - and let's be honest, he continues to NOT share all of his plans with his Robin's to this day. As it is right now Damian is doing better on his own arguably than he ever did with Bruce.

So, yes, I do think that Stephanie should be considered a Robin, for two out of the three reasons that the other Robin's are - and arguably, a fourth reason that one of the other Robin's doesn't share, and that's that she actually graduated out of her role as Robin, something that Tim never did. The best he's been written in the last six years has been as a return to being Robin, even without the name. Stephanie, both as Batgirl and as Spoiler, has made both of those identities her own much like Dick did Nightwing and Jason did Red Hood. Damian hasn't gotten the opportunity yet, but he reinvented Robin for himself in a way that the others never had so he certainly would have no issue "graduating," so to speak.

[millernumber1]

Okay, so, yes I think that Stephanie's tenure as Robin officially counts as her being a Robin, or "one of the boys" so to speak.

I see people making the argument that she was always intended to die, and that's true, but another thing I don't think people are taking into account is the fact that literally everyone involved in War Games was fighting to change the outcome of this, but editorial at the time was so against Chuck Dixon and the majority of his creations and/or work. So while it was edict that Steph was slated to die, the writers wanted Stephanie to survive and for her to be Robin and to make Robin her own mantle. I think it was Devin Grayson that said that she thought it was more than time for DC to include a female Robin among them, and that Steph was perfect for the role or something to that effect?

The other point I see people making is that Stephanie's role as Robin never exactly defined her character. That's also wrong. Her entire drive as Spoiler when she was brought back had to do with what happened when she was Robin - she wanted to prove to Bruce, and to Tim, and to everyone that she was good at this and that what happened to her as Robin, or rather right after she got fired, was a fluke. And she was right, because it was more Bruce's fault than it was her own when it comes down to it. That didn't stop when Stephanie became Batgirl. The majority of her run was defined by the fact that she still wanted to prove herself, and it was even lampshaded. Her mentor was the original Batgirl, present Oracle, Barbara Gordon. That's a woman who used "her" autopsy photos to talk the "last girl who wanted to be Batgirl" (Misfit) out of doing it. Stephanie had to prove to Babs and to Dick and to Damian that she was ready for this because of what happened to her in War Games.

The only people that believed in Stephanie when she became Batgirl were Bruce and Cassandra, and even then, Stephanie didn't know that about Bruce. She knew that Cassandra left Batgirl to her, but she didn't know why for the majority of her tenure. She had to prove herself to everyone that was important, and that was specifically because of what happened to her during War Games. She did everything she did in War Games because of what happened when she was Robin, and the only reason it didn't work is because Bruce didn't share any of his contingencies with her - and let's be honest, he continues to NOT share all of his plans with his Robin's to this day. As it is right now Damian is doing better on his own arguably than he ever did with Bruce.

So, yes, I do think that Stephanie should be considered a Robin, for two out of the three reasons that the other Robin's are - and arguably, a fourth reason that one of the other Robin's doesn't share, and that's that she actually graduated out of her role as Robin, something that Tim never did. The best he's been written in the last six years has been as a return to being Robin, even without the name. Stephanie, both as Batgirl and as Spoiler, has made both of those identities her own much like Dick did Nightwing and Jason did Red Hood. Damian hasn't gotten the opportunity yet, but he reinvented Robin for himself in a way that the others never had so he certainly would have no issue "graduating," so to speak.

Oooh, really well said! Except Tim did graduate to Red Robin in his second solo series.

[Harpsikord]

Oooh, really well said! Except Tim did graduate to Red Robin in his second solo series.

Oh no, of course he did! I meant more like he never filled out a real niche for himself outside of Robin. Red Robin was a good series, but it didn't last long enough to make too much of a difference, and once the New 52 hit Tim was a disaster until he was basically Robin again in 'Tec.

[millernumber1]

Oh no, of course he did! I meant more like he never filled out a real niche for himself outside of Robin. Red Robin was a good series, but it didn't last long enough to make too much of a difference, and once the New 52 hit Tim was a disaster until he was basically Robin again in 'Tec.

True enough. I think the problem with Tim post Dixon is that he had fun writers, but no one who really carved out an arc that was worth remembering (sorry, but "every female villain wants to jump Tim's bones" isn't a memorable arc, FabNic).

[Badou]

So, yes, I do think that Stephanie should be considered a Robin, for two out of the three reasons that the other Robin's are - and arguably, a fourth reason that one of the other Robin's doesn't share, and that's that she actually graduated out of her role as Robin, something that Tim never did. The best he's been written in the last six years has been as a return to being Robin, even without the name. Stephanie, both as Batgirl and as Spoiler, has made both of those identities her own much like Dick did Nightwing and Jason did Red Hood. Damian hasn't gotten the opportunity yet, but he reinvented Robin for himself in a way that the others never had so he certainly would have no issue "graduating," so to speak.

Saying she "graduated" out of the Robin role isn't really correct. That argument only works if she actually is considered a "true" Robin and judging by this poll she is not considered one. She didn't hold the mantel long enough or do anything to define the role and make it her own like the others. Her time as Robin was nothing more than a small plot point in a not so good story. I mean what did she add to the role? Dick was the first hero sidekick and defined the role for decades, Jason was the Robin that failed, died and probably caused Bruce his greatest pain next to his parents' death, Tim modernized and updated the role for a new generation and was the first to hold a solo book, Damian has carried on what Tim has done with redefining the role along with a new Batman (Dick) and is Bruce's actual son, and Carrie was the first female Robin and was in one of the most revered Batman stories of all time. I understand that Steph fans want her to feel important and that her time as Robin meant something, but it didn't, especially when you consider the legacy of the other Robins in comparison.

I mean is Helena Wayne considered a "true" Robin? There are probably just as many issues of her being the Robin of Earth 2 in the New 52 than of Steph being Robin but you don't see people clamoring for her to be included in the lists of Robins the way Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian and Carrie are.

[Frontier]

True enough. I think the problem with Tim post Dixon is that he had fun writers, but no one who really carved out an arc that was worth remembering (sorry, but "every female villain wants to jump Tim's bones" isn't a memorable arc, FabNic).

That wasn't all that was there though .

[Harpsikord]

Saying she "graduated" out of the Robin role isn't really correct. That argument only works if she actually is considered a "true" Robin and judging by this poll she is not considered one. She didn't hold the mantel long enough or do anything to define the role and make it her own like the others. Her time as Robin was nothing more than a small plot point in a not so good story. I mean what did she add to the role? Dick was the first hero sidekick and defined the role for decades, Jason was the Robin that failed, died and probably caused Bruce his greatest pain next to his parents' death, Tim modernized and updated the role for a new generation and was the first to hold a solo book, Damian has carried on what Tim has done with redefining the role along with a new Batman (Dick) and is Bruce's actual son, and Carrie was the first female Robin and was in one of the most revered Batman stories of all time. I understand that Steph fans want her to feel important and that her time as Robin meant something, but it didn't, especially when you consider the legacy of the other Robins in comparison.

I mean is Helena Wayne considered a "true" Robin? There are probably just as many issues of her being the Robin of Earth 2 in the New 52 than of Steph being Robin but you don't see people clamoring for her to be included in the lists of Robins the way Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian and Carrie are.

I think this is all subjective is what it comes down to. Do you or do you not consider this character a true Robin? That's the question, less than "is she" actually one.

I mean, I consider Helena a true Robin for her universe and the same goes for Carrie, but when it comes to the "main" Robin's, no, I don't consider them Robin's.

[millernumber1]

Saying she "graduated" out of the Robin role isn't really correct. That argument only works if she actually is considered a "true" Robin and judging by this poll she is not considered one. She didn't hold the mantel long enough or do anything to define the role and make it her own like the others. Her time as Robin was nothing more than a small plot point in a not so good story. I mean what did she add to the role? Dick was the first hero sidekick and defined the role for decades, Jason was the Robin that failed, died and probably caused Bruce his greatest pain next to his parents' death, Tim modernized and updated the role for a new generation and was the first to hold a solo book, Damian has carried on what Tim has done with redefining the role along with a new Batman (Dick) and is Bruce's actual son, and Carrie was the first female Robin and was in one of the most revered Batman stories of all time. I understand that Steph fans want her to feel important and that her time as Robin meant something, but it didn't, especially when you consider the legacy of the other Robins in comparison.

I mean is Helena Wayne considered a "true" Robin? There are probably just as many issues of her being the Robin of Earth 2 in the New 52 than of Steph being Robin but you don't see people clamoring for her to be included in the lists of Robins the way Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian and Carrie are.

Saying that she's not a true Robin because of this poll is circular. And it's clear that a lot of people - not the majority, but also not a tiny minority - disagree with you, for many well articulated reasons.

Carrie is great, and she's definitely important, but she's completely unimportant with regards to mainstream continuity, and I don't see her gaining a lot of fans even with her major role in DK3. Yes, her story is way more important than War Games - but her role in that story was...pretty minimal. She's much more important in the animated film version.

It doesn't mean as much to you, and many others. Sure. But it does mean as much or more to myself, and 22 other brave souls.

As for why Carrie and Helena don't have the same kind of fanbase demanding recognition of their time as Robin? Because they're literally marginalized by continuity - they do not exist in the comics which have and had the most readers and form the ongoing community who hold Gotham in their minds and hearts as a "real" place.

[Badou]

Saying that she's not a true Robin because of this poll is circular. And it's clear that a lot of people - not the majority, but also not a tiny minority - disagree with you, for many well articulated reasons.

Carrie is great, and she's definitely important, but she's completely unimportant with regards to mainstream continuity, and I don't see her gaining a lot of fans even with her major role in DK3. Yes, her story is way more important than War Games - but her role in that story was...pretty minimal. She's much more important in the animated film version.

It doesn't mean as much to you, and many others. Sure. But it does mean as much or more to myself, and 22 other brave souls.

As for why Carrie and Helena don't have the same kind of fanbase demanding recognition of their time as Robin? Because they're literally marginalized by continuity - they do not exist in the comics which have and had the most readers and form the ongoing community who hold Gotham in their minds and hearts as a "real" place.

Well I guess it is all perspective. Older readers probably see Helena Wayne as a much bigger character than Steph because she used to be such a central figure in the comics decades ago, and she could very well be part of the main continuity again one day I guess. Although most see her as Huntress and not Robin.

I think that this poll would probably be reversed if it was about Carrie and not Steph. I feel like Carrie carved out a small place in the Robin history for herself much more than Steph has as Carrie is usually looked at as the first female Robin and that has been her legacy.

And I don't think them having to be part of the mainstream comic continuity matters that much as many consider Terry to be part of Batman's legacy even if he generally isn't associated with the main continuity. I think it is more about being able to carve out a place where their time as Robin, Batman, Batgirl and so on stand out and they feel like they "own" the identity during that time. Steph never did that and is why her time as Spoiler and Batgirl defined her so much more.

[Aioros22]

Saying she "graduated" out of the Robin role isn't really correct. That argument only works if she actually is considered a "true" Robin and judging by this poll she is not considered one. She didn't hold the mantel long enough or do anything to define the role and make it her own like the others. Her time as Robin was nothing more than a small plot point in a not so good story. I mean what did she add to the role? Dick was the first hero sidekick and defined the role for decades, Jason was the Robin that failed, died and probably caused Bruce his greatest pain next to his parents' death, Tim modernized and updated the role for a new generation and was the first to hold a solo book, Damian has carried on what Tim has done with redefining the role along with a new Batman (Dick) and is Bruce's actual son, and Carrie was the first female Robin and was in one of the most revered Batman stories of all time. I understand that Steph fans want her to feel important and that her time as Robin meant something, but it didn't, especially when you consider the legacy of the other Robins in comparison.

I mean is Helena Wayne considered a "true" Robin? There are probably just as many issues of her being the Robin of Earth 2 in the New 52 than of Steph being Robin but you don't see people clamoring for her to be included in the lists of Robins the way Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian and Carrie are.

Jason`s identity within the role is of sacrifice, not failure. I`m aware a number of writers went and push that angle to contrast with Tim but the first stories of Tim learning the ropes was virtually living up the example of heroism Jason (and Dick) had given him. Let`s stick to the actual stories that matter, not the office agenda. this isn`t the 90`s anymore.

[Alycat]

I don't. I think her time as Robin didn't define or respect her as a character. She will always be more connected and a better Batgirl imo. Besides that storyline was awful. Why do fans want to remember it? I know Robin is a good legacy and all, but it wasn't for Steph. Let it go.

[Badou]

Jason`s identity within the role is of sacrifice, not failure. I`m aware a number of writers went and push that angle to contrast with Tim but the first stories of Tim learning the ropes was virtually living up the example of heroism Jason (and Dick) had given him. Let`s stick to the actual stories that matter, not the office agenda. this isn`t the 90`s anymore.

I suppose that is a different discussion to be had. To me Jason will always be the Robin that "failed" and is in part what makes him an interesting character and the Robin legacy have more meaning. Not saying he didn't have his moments as Robin, and that he didn't sacrifice himself, but what he is most known for in the role is dying and that made him feel like he failed Bruce which caused him to have such a big chip on his shoulder.

[millernumber1]

I don't. I think her time as Robin didn't define or respect her as a character. She will always be more connected and a better Batgirl imo. Besides that storyline was awful. Why do fans want to remember it? I know Robin is a good legacy and all, but it wasn't for Steph. Let it go.

There is a sense that you are correct. However, my own perspective is:

1) I love her outfit and attitude. It's everything I want Robin to be like (even though I love Tim).

2) There is a lot of potential - I really think there's a strong case to be made that the story really only goes downhill in the last issue of Robin - it just feels so arbitrary at the very end to me. So I still view the first two and a half issues of Robin, and her tie-ins with Batgirl and Tec, very positively (though there are a few things I can criticize, like Steph having to re-learn not to kill).

3) I don't see why we have to say that Steph's not a real Robin because Robin isn't the role that defines her. Dick and Jason have both had other roles that have eclipsed their time as Robin.

4) Additionally, part of my insistence that Steph is a "real" or whatever Robin is because I want to redress the wrong that editorial did to Steph. Her time mattered, despite they're hatred of her character.