Is Stephanie Brown a True Robin?

[Alycat]

There is a sense that you are correct. However, my own perspective is:

1) I love her outfit and attitude. It's everything I want Robin to be like (even though I love Tim).

2) There is a lot of potential - I really think there's a strong case to be made that the story really only goes downhill in the last issue of Robin - it just feels so arbitrary at the very end to me. So I still view the first two and a half issues of Robin, and her tie-ins with Batgirl and Tec, very positively (though there are a few things I can criticize, like Steph having to re-learn not to kill).

3) I don't see why we have to say that Steph's not a real Robin because Robin isn't the role that defines her. Dick and Jason have both had other roles that have eclipsed their time as Robin.

4) Additionally, part of my insistence that Steph is a "real" or whatever Robin is because I want to redress the wrong that editorial did to Steph. Her time mattered, despite they're hatred of her character.

I see what you mean by the first 2 things especially number 1. As for your third point I have to disagree and tie it into the 4th one that no her time as Robin really did not matter in the long run especially to the family and myths as a whole. Also while Dick and Jason's new roles may have eclipsed their robin role( which I think can actually be argued against in some cases with Dick), it was the Robin role that defined their relationships with Bruce and made their marks in Batmans history. Robin ( especially the father/son/ mentor/ partnership)is important and needed in both those histories where it isn't so much in Stephanie case. She could go straight from Spoiler to Batgirl and keep in her problems with Bruce without that stupid baggage that her Robin storyline had.

[millernumber1]

I see what you mean by the first 2 things especially number 1. As for your third point I have to disagree and tie it into the 4th one that no her time as Robin really did not matter in the long run especially to the family and myths as a whole. Also while Dick and Jason's new roles may have eclipsed their robin role( which I think can actually be argued against in some cases with Dick), it was the Robin role that defined their relationships with Bruce and made their marks in Batmans history. Robin ( especially the father/son/ mentor/ partnership)is important and needed in both those histories where it isn't so much in Stephanie case. She could go straight from Spoiler to Batgirl and keep in her problems with Bruce without that stupid baggage that her Robin storyline had.

I think "mattering" really depends on who it matters to. It matters to me. Mattering in continuity really depends on who's writing. It mattered during the Batgirl run by BQM, so I still maintain there's a strong case to be made it matters even if you believe that Batgirl is more important (which I would actually agree, since getting a solo is more important than a guest main spot in someone else's solo).

A lot of this comes down to the reader, I think. So this is more a show of noses on what readers feel which way.

[Red obin]

So, another question, do you guys consider Helenna Bertellini to be a "true batgirl?"

[Adam Allen]

But WAS she killed as a Robin? My search-fu is pretty weak and I didn't read War Games... but I've seen is that she was Spoiler when she died, and Tim was back as Robin.

I don't know if I never read the actual comic where she died before or if I'd forgotten, but it doesn't change my opinion on it. I'm glad she was brought back, but I don't think bringing her back negates that she was killed off. I guess it just comes down to opinion, but I would compare it kind of to whether you'd say Hal Jordan becoming Parallax was significant to his character ... you know, in the end it was retconned so Parallax is a completely different character and Hal was just possessed by him, so I could understand if someone would say it's not important to Hal as an individual character, though important to the GL Corp and DC overall.

I guess I would tend to say you know it was significant because it had to be retconned. Like, that horrible idea to make Punisher an undead avenger with magical weapons:

Purgatory3.jpg

They didn't so much retcon his having died and come back that way, as much as just pretended it never happened. Kind of like the thing with Wolverine not being a mutant, but him and a few other characters being some kind of other special offshoot of humanity ... not retconned, but just ignored, because it was a lame idea. Stephanie Brown still "died" in Bat-continuity, it was just later "revealed" that she had not really died. So yeah, that makes it seem important, to me. But again, of course opinions will vary!

[Caivu]

So, another question, do you guys consider Helenna Bertellini to be a "true batgirl?"

I do. Helena was a damn trooper in No Man's Land, serving as both an unofficial Batgirl and as Huntress at the same time for a while. Her time in the Batsuit also helped her to temper her stance on killing. And then of course Bruce intentionally screwed her over just because he didn't like her.

[Assam]

So, another question, do you guys consider Helenna Bertellini to be a "true batgirl?"

I consider her a Batgirl about as much as I do Charlie and Bette. Which is to say: F**k yes they were Batgirls.

I'll admit, when I think "Batgirl", I think of Cass, Steph, and Babs first. Buuuuuuut, Helena in NML was doing her damn best, and I've always thought of her time there both as "Batgirl" as well as a rookie Batman. Bette obviously was the one who originated the role, despite being "Bat-Girl", and if she gets included in tributes and material with "all the Batgirls" then the other two should as well. And lastly, Charlie. Yeah, I'm biased because I REALLY like her, but Batgirl was the role she was introduced in, it was what led her to forming a bond with Babs, and, of course, her presence as Batgirl allowed Gail Simone to be one of the ONLY writers to be paying any respect to Cass's heroic legacy. (EvilCass was going on at the time, and I say "any" because Simone still included, and was probably forced to, that line from a random guy about Babs being "the real Batgirl."

[Frontier]

So, another question, do you guys consider Helenna Bertellini to be a "true batgirl?"

I enjoyed her story in No Man's Land but, like with Steph as far as the Robins are concerned, she's never really someone I think of when I think "Batgirl."

[Lady Nightwing]

I voted no. It's just a feeling and completely subjective. It's also not a slight against Stephanie though. I love Dick Grayson but I don't consider him a true Batman, Terry either. The only true Batman is Bruce Wayne and I say that as someone who's favourite Batman stories are the Black Mirror and Grant Morrison's Batman and Robin with Dick and Damian.

[ayanestar]

So, another question, do you guys consider Helenna Bertellini to be a "true batgirl?"

I don't. Batgirl is the last thing that comes to my mind when I think of her - the same with Steph and Robin.

[millernumber1]

I don't know if I never read the actual comic where she died before or if I'd forgotten, but it doesn't change my opinion on it. I'm glad she was brought back, but I don't think bringing her back negates that she was killed off. I guess it just comes down to opinion, but I would compare it kind of to whether you'd say Hal Jordan becoming Parallax was significant to his character ... you know, in the end it was retconned so Parallax is a completely different character and Hal was just possessed by him, so I could understand if someone would say it's not important to Hal as an individual character, though important to the GL Corp and DC overall.

I guess I would tend to say you know it was significant because it had to be retconned. Like, that horrible idea to make Punisher an undead avenger with magical weapons:

They didn't so much retcon his having died and come back that way, as much as just pretended it never happened. Kind of like the thing with Wolverine not being a mutant, but him and a few other characters being some kind of other special offshoot of humanity ... not retconned, but just ignored, because it was a lame idea. Stephanie Brown still "died" in Bat-continuity, it was just later "revealed" that she had not really died. So yeah, that makes it seem important, to me. But again, of course opinions will vary!

Really excellent points.

As far as Bette and Helena's time as Batgirl, I definitely think there's room for Bette (since Young Justice seemed to imply that she was some form of Batgirl when she met Cass), but Helena's time was so improvised, as was Misfit's, that I don't think of them as Batgirl at all. Which seems a bit hypocritical, considering how hard I fight for Steph to be considered a "real" Robin - but I think it's a sense of promotion. Helena's an adult, and Huntress is an adult identity. Batgirl is, if anything, a lateral move, if not regressing to being under Bruce's control (and manipulation). Spoiler is independent, but untrained, and her training as Robin boosts her skill really high, as Catwoman attests in War Games. Misfit...isn't ready for any role, really, until the Birds start training her (and I'm still really annoyed that Simone didn't do more with her in her second run).

[Adam Allen]

I hadn't considered Helena Bertinelli a "true Batgirl" only because I'd honestly forgotten she had been Batgirl until just now. Her NML costume foreshadowed Cassandra's though, didn't it? I'd have to give her the title just for that alone really, because it was probably my favorite look. This has all reminded me though, what happened to the other Huntress, who was kicking around before Rebirth?

Huntress_DC_Comics.jpg

She was a true Robin, too. Still around, somewhere?

[millernumber1]

I hadn't considered Helena Bertinelli a "true Batgirl" only because I'd honestly forgotten she had been Batgirl until just now. Her NML costume foreshadowed Cassandra's though, didn't it? I'd have to give her the title just for that alone really, because it was probably my favorite look. This has all reminded me though, what happened to the other Huntress, who was kicking around before Rebirth?

Huntress_DC_Comics.jpg

She was a true Robin, too. Still around, somewhere?

On earth 2, isn't she?

[Assam]

On earth 2, isn't she?

That's where Helena Wayne was Robin, yes.

Buuuuuuut, with Earth-2 cancelled and the real JSA on track to return, it's doubtful we'll ever see the Earth-2 cast again outside of minor appearances and cameos.

And for the most part, not about Helena, I'm happy about this! Damn posers...

[Caivu]

I hadn't considered Helena Bertinelli a "true Batgirl" only because I'd honestly forgotten she had been Batgirl until just now. Her NML costume foreshadowed Cassandra's though, didn't it?

It didn't just foreshadow it, it was literally the exact same suit.

[Aioros22]

I suppose that is a different discussion to be had. To me Jason will always be the Robin that "failed" and is in part what makes him an interesting character and the Robin legacy have more meaning. Not saying he didn't have his moments as Robin, and that he didn't sacrifice himself, but what he is most known for in the role is dying and that made him feel like he failed Bruce which caused him to have such a big chip on his shoulder.

I`m guessing it`s on how you read "failure". That`s why I mention the 90`s to early 00`s. The only period in publication where Jason was sometimes mention as having died because he failed in the role by not being good enough was only ever after he died. During his tenures as Robin both Pre and Post Crisis that was never anywhere. He earned and did good on the role as his predecessor did. Superman said it, Batman said, Elongated Man said it, Dick said, Wonder Woman said, Donna Troy said it, Roy said it, etc. He was there during Crisis, he was there during Legends, he was there Millenium, he helped save Superman, Dick and Raven and Gordon and Batman. That`s more than "a few moments" to shine on. As a fun footone, the last mention of Jason not being skilled came in "Hush" wich was subquentely retconned the moment Under The Red Hood kicks in.

For that reason, Steph would likely fall on that sort of spot more accurately since it was during her training and she got over her head early on.

Now, if you mean "failure" in emotional terms because anger, because youth, because raaaageTM, that`s more doable and accurate. Loedbell certainly seems to string on that note as did Winnick and Tomasi. Otherwise? Eh, even Dick Grayson got benched after ignoring a bat command and getting shot by the Joker and falling from a height.