Is Stephanie Brown a True Robin?

[millernumber1]

It didn't just foreshadow it, it was literally the exact same suit.

Which is hilarious, since Helena is 5'11", and Cass is 5'6" or something.

I`m guessing it`s on how you read "failure". That`s why I mention the 90`s to early 00`s. The only period in publication where Jason was sometimes mention as having died because he failed in the role by not being good enough was only ever after he died. During his tenures as Robin both Pre and Post Crisis that was never anywhere. He earned and did good on the role as his predecessor did. Superman said it, Batman said, Elongated Man said it, Dick said, Wonder Woman said, Donna Troy said it, Roy said it, etc. He was there during Crisis, he was there during Legends, he was there Millenium, he helped save Superman, Dick and Raven and Gordon and Batman. That`s more than "a few moments" to shine on. As a fun footone, the last mention of Jason not being skilled came in "Hush" wich was subquentely retconned the moment Under The Red Hood kicks in.

For that reason, Steph would likely fall on that sort of spot more accurately since it was during her training and she got over her head early on.

Now, if you mean "failure" in emotional terms because anger, because youth, because raaaageTM, that`s more doable and accurate. Loedbell certainly seems to string on that note as did Winnick and Tomasi. Otherwise? Eh, even Dick Grayson got benched after ignoring a bat command and getting shot by the Joker and falling from a height.

Also, Steph "failed" because Batman set her up for failure. Instead of giving her his trust, and training her for the type of decision making she would need for the kind of circumstances that led to her disobedience, Batman screwed with her head by giving her a partial trust (not telling her crucial information like Matches Malones, and possibly never even telling her that he was Bruce Wayne, since he keeps the cowl on during her training montage), but a completely arbitrary and vague "You can never disobey me or you're fired" red line.

[Aioros22]

I`ve never read the run but it`s my understanding the character work was severily lacking in places and that Steph was basically an emotional tampoon for Tim not wanting to keep having the role or something. I recall reading a page back then of her doing some pushups and Bruce just grunting "Tim would`va done the double by now".

I tend to love the writer`s output but this screamed awkward to me somehow. The whole idea of not everyone is fit to be "Robin" can have merit if not done with a character who already had its fans or executed it with a sledghammer.

[adrikito]

WOW... This topic would be better for Controversial Batfamily opinions..

[daBronzeBomma]

Voted no.

You say the names Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake or Damien Wayne (or even to a lesser extent Carrie Kelly) to most people who are not hardcore Batverse fans, "Robin" will be the first identity that comes up (presuming they recognize any of those names in the first place). Those 4 are defined primarily as their Robin identities, even if/when they move on. Even decades later, I'd say Dick and Jason are still better known as 1st Robin and Dead Robin than they are Nightwing and Red Hood. Tim never really moved past Robin (hence his current ptedicament as the Stuck Robin) and Damien shifts the dynamic duo's dynamic so violently that he is instantly memorable as the Psycho Robin. Even Carrie gets credited with the Female Robin tag more than Stephanie (again, among non-hardcore Batverse fans).

Also, all 4 of the True Robins demonstrated a uniquely deep personal connection to Bruce.

Stephanie Brown is known way more (if she is known at all) for Spoiler and Batgirl than as Robin 3.5, imho.

[JasonTodd428]

4) Additionally, part of my insistence that Steph is a "real" or whatever Robin is because I want to redress the wrong that editorial did to Steph. Her time mattered, despite they're hatred of her character.

Steph is a "real" Robin in the sense that she did serve for a brief time as Robin. I can agree with that on a technical level I just don't happen to think that a lot of people think of her as a "Robin". The thing is because of the wrongs that editorial did to her time as Robin has been tainted IMO. It was nothing less than a stunt wherein the character was set up for failure and character assassination doesn't ever sit well with me. Heck various writers have worked hard over the years to make Jason Todd out to be the "failed Robin" while the kid was in the grave. So much so that people today only ever think of him in those terms. Fans really shouldn't be the ones that have to redress wrongs done to characters. That's really the purview of the company that committed the wrong in the first place, in this case DC. I think that did a fine job redressing it with her time as Batgirl but that's just an opinion.

[Assam]

Steph is a "real" Robin in the sense that she did serve for a brief time as Robin. I can agree with that on a technical level I just don't happen to think that a lot of people think of her as a "Robin". The thing is because of the wrongs that editorial did to her time as Robin has been tainted IMO. It was nothing less than a stunt wherein the character was set up for failure and character assassination doesn't ever sit well with me. Heck various writers have worked hard over the years to make Jason Todd out to be the "failed Robin" while the kid was in the grave. So much so that people today only ever think of him in those terms. Fans really shouldn't be the ones that have to redress wrongs done to characters. That's really the purview of the company that committed the wrong in the first place, in this case DC. I think that did a fine job redressing it with her time as Batgirl but that's just an opinion.

I don't think of Jason as the "failed Robin." But I don't think that that's Steph either.

No, if we're throwing out titles like that, Steph is "The Robin Batman Failed."

He used her, he manipulated her, he didn't put his trust in her, he was biased against her (not even gonna get into the sexist overtones in that relationship), and because he thought he was the almighty Batgod who was in control of everything, Steph "died."

As Millernumber1 pointed out, there's a damn good reason everyone left Gotham after this crap. What happened to Jason was not Bruce's fault. What happened to Steph was.

[Nevets]

I don't understand why someone has to be "defined" as Robin to be a "true" Robin. I look at things as facts...the fact is Stephanie was a Robin. It wouldn't matter if she died on day 1...she was still an official Robin.

David Knight was also a Star Man. Helena was also a Batgirl.

[Frontier]

I don't think of Jason as the "failed Robin." But I don't think that that's Steph either.

No, if we're throwing out titles like that, Steph is "The Robin Batman Failed."

He used her, he manipulated her, he didn't put his trust in her, he was biased against her (not even gonna get into the sexist overtones in that relationship), and because he thought he was the almighty Batgod who was in control of everything, Steph "died."

As Millernumber1 pointed out, there's a damn good reason everyone left Gotham after this crap. What happened to Jason was not Bruce's fault. What happened to Steph was.

Well, Jason can also extend into "The Robin that Batman failed" as well.

We can debate whether Bruce had any responsibility in his death beyond making him Robin and getting him involved in dangerous situations,, but as far as his death is concerned I'm pretty sure Bruce has and always will see it as a failure on his part that he wasn't able to protect or save Jason.

It's just that in Steph's case, he just comes out looking like the bad guy in his failure. Justifiably so, but still.

[thefiresky]

I don't understand why someone has to be "defined" as Robin to be a "true" Robin. I look at things as facts...the fact is Stephanie was a Robin. It wouldn't matter if she died on day 1...she was still an official Robin.

David Knight was also a Star Man. Helena was also a Batgirl.

I see where you're coming from. The legitimate fact is she already donned the mantle, wore the suit, appointed by the Bat, but the opinionated factors are much different. I think that people associate her time as Robin almost like they would associate Bruce as a "White Lantern", or Dick as "Batman". Like, yea it happened, but that's not their true identities. I know that there are individuals who are strongly opinionated about her NOT being a Robin based on bias ( like allegiance to the originals, or even possible sub-conscience sexism), but those are the WRONG reasons that disqualify her. The true reasoning is that she just never established a long enough residence in the uniform, and graduated too quickly.

[JasonTodd428]

I don't think of Jason as the "failed Robin." But I don't think that that's Steph either.

No, if we're throwing out titles like that, Steph is "The Robin Batman Failed."

He used her, he manipulated her, he didn't put his trust in her, he was biased against her (not even gonna get into the sexist overtones in that relationship), and because he thought he was the almighty Batgod who was in control of everything, Steph "died."

As Millernumber1 pointed out, there's a damn good reason everyone left Gotham after this crap. What happened to Jason was not Bruce's fault. What happened to Steph was.

Steph was also the "Robin that DC failed" in addition to being the one that "Batman failed" which honestly is not a good look for her either IMO. There was so much potential there and DC blew it on a stunt. That's the sad thing about this whole thing really. I really would have loved to have seen them take Steph as Robin seriously. I'm thinking it could have been a really fun time. Sadly Cass didn't fair any better either.

[millernumber1]

I`ve never read the run but it`s my understanding the character work was severily lacking in places and that Steph was basically an emotional tampoon for Tim not wanting to keep having the role or something. I recall reading a page back then of her doing some pushups and Bruce just grunting "Tim would`va done the double by now".

I tend to love the writer`s output but this screamed awkward to me somehow. The whole idea of not everyone is fit to be "Robin" can have merit if not done with a character who already had its fans or executed it with a sledghammer.

Willingham wasn't the best fit for Robin - his writing for the title was a very awkward blend of "fun and shallow for kids!" and "EXTREME TORTURE SCENES" (and not just when Steph was tortured). He's given a very interesting interview on a podcast where he's claimed he asked that Steph not be killed, because he wanted to write a year long story about the master warrior (Batman) training the young squire (Steph), but was turned down. I am hesitant on whether that would have been a good idea, given his writing on the title, but it would have been better than what happened.

That being said, there are still moments that stand out to me of awesome - both in Steph's crossover issues with Cass and Bruce (in Tec), and even within the Robin title itself - Steph's enthusiasm and good heart are still there, and there are moments where Bruce does start to respond to it.

Steph is a "real" Robin in the sense that she did serve for a brief time as Robin. I can agree with that on a technical level I just don't happen to think that a lot of people think of her as a "Robin". The thing is because of the wrongs that editorial did to her time as Robin has been tainted IMO. It was nothing less than a stunt wherein the character was set up for failure and character assassination doesn't ever sit well with me. Heck various writers have worked hard over the years to make Jason Todd out to be the "failed Robin" while the kid was in the grave. So much so that people today only ever think of him in those terms. Fans really shouldn't be the ones that have to redress wrongs done to characters. That's really the purview of the company that committed the wrong in the first place, in this case DC. I think that did a fine job redressing it with her time as Batgirl but that's just an opinion.

You are correct that a lot of people don't think of her as Robin. But I think a significant portion do, at least within the community of people who know her history. Batgirl was an excellent apology/redemption for DC and Steph - but the way they erased Steph in the n52 also erased a lot of that good will. So I continue to hold onto Steph as a part of the legend of true Robins, and will enthusiastically celebrate her moment in the red, green and yellow.

I don't think of Jason as the "failed Robin." But I don't think that that's Steph either.

No, if we're throwing out titles like that, Steph is "The Robin Batman Failed."

He used her, he manipulated her, he didn't put his trust in her, he was biased against her (not even gonna get into the sexist overtones in that relationship), and because he thought he was the almighty Batgod who was in control of everything, Steph "died."

As Millernumber1 pointed out, there's a damn good reason everyone left Gotham after this crap. What happened to Jason was not Bruce's fault. What happened to Steph was.

Yupyupyupyupyup.

[Aioros22]

Well, Jason can also extend into "The Robin that Batman failed" as well.

We can debate whether Bruce had any responsibility in his death beyond making him Robin and getting him involved in dangerous situations,, but as far as his death is concerned I'm pretty sure Bruce has and always will see it as a failure on his part that he wasn't able to protect or save Jason.

It's just that in Steph's case, he just comes out looking like the bad guy in his failure. Justifiably so, but still.

I`m more content in placing the blame on the ones actually responsible: Joker and a misplaced mother who never got to to truly be one until the dying moment. Jason was trained, with clear promise and skilled. The only cavetae on Batman is the way he handled Jason`s (or Starlins..) anger. Or should we say a somewhat lack of handling but that`s a blame attributed on both of them being hardheads.

With Steph and appearantly more on Office, neither her or Bruce comes out smelling like roses. Bruce particularly comes out like the bad guy putting someone to a fall just to prove he was right.

[Timber Wolf-By-Night]

Just out of curiosity, as I had dropped the Batbooks as a whole right before No Man's Land purely for financial reasons, but who exactly was in Bat-Editorial that supposedly hated Chuck Dixon so much that I've seen "editorial" accused of going out of its way to kill off Stephanie Brown just to strike at Dixon?

[Aahz]

Also, Steph "failed" because Batman set her up for failure. Instead of giving her his trust, and training her for the type of decision making she would need for the kind of circumstances that led to her disobedience, Batman screwed with her head by giving her a partial trust (not telling her crucial information like Matches Malones, and possibly never even telling her that he was Bruce Wayne, since he keeps the cowl on during her training montage), but a completely arbitrary and vague "You can never disobey me or you're fired" red line.

I find is always strange that Steph and Jason are allways said to be the reckless and disobedient Robins, and Dick isn't as is even often said to be the perfect Robin.

If you look at modern stories from his time as Robin Dick as reckless and disobedient as them or even maybe even worse.

[millernumber1]

Just out of curiosity, as I had dropped the Batbooks as a whole right before No Man's Land purely for financial reasons, but who exactly was in Bat-Editorial that supposedly hated Chuck Dixon so much that I've seen "editorial" accused of going out of its way to kill off Stephanie Brown just to strike at Dixon?

The suspects are hard to pin down. Didio says it wasn't him. I personally favor Bob Harras, but I can't find anyone who will actually say anything about Harras's role in War Games or the destruction of Bludhaven.

The big problem with Steph's death, and the general destruction of everything Dixon created or built up, is that no one will take responsibility, but everyone on the record who was involved with those things does hint or outright say that there was an editorial mandate to do these things (though with no motivation attached, naturally).

I find is always strange that Steph and Jason are allways said to be the reckless and disobedient Robins, and Dick isn't as is even often said to be the perfect Robin.

If you look at modern stories from his time as Robin Dick as reckless and disobedient as them or even maybe even worse.

Exactly! The blatant double standard of Dick and Tim being allowed to disobey Batman, but Jason and Steph being blamed for their own deaths for doing extremely similar things, is what really rankles, especially when it comes time to talk about "best" or "true" Robins.

Steph's time as Robin was a Hobbesian nightmare - nasty, brutish, and short. But I love her in the role, and I will always consider her my favorite, with the best costume and attitude, and I will fight anyone who tries to tell me she's not part of the legend.