Is Stephanie Brown a True Robin?

[millernumber1]

Eeh, im not sure Steph is actually remembered as the light hearted Robin. And when Steph was Batgirl they kind of swept War Games and her time and Robin under the rug. Not actually sure if they ever even brought up that she was Robin, if they did it was not often, or how she started a horrible gang war. In fact when Steph explained the history of Batman and Robin in Batgirl she even left herself out.

Steph was remembered as the light hearted Robin by Tim and Dinah, when DC let the writers mention it at all.

There's still a bunch of issues mentioning Steph's history as Robin that slipped through, from Gotham Central to Batgirl. Bruce Wayne: The Road Home: Batgirl showed her in the Robin suit, and talked about the gang war. Babs brought up both in issue #2 (even referencing the Birds of Prey storyline where she showed Steph's "autopsy" photos to Misfit). As crummy and stupid as the arc was, it did have an impact on Steph's history beyond being "dead" for four years.

The chibi history of Batman left a TON of stuff out (much to the rage of Cass fans, apparently).

[dietrich]

Seriously.

You want to explain why you feel Steph isn't a Robin? Go right ahead. It's part of what the thread is for.

Clearly though, even just looking at that poll, a LOT of us don't see the idea of this being worth discussion as "ridiculous."

I should clarify. I wasn't referring to the title of thread just some of the points being made.

What is ridiculous is that Dick Grayson's tenure as robin was just compared to Steph tenure as Robin that is what is ridiculous.

[Assam]

I should clarify. I wasn't referring to the title of thread just some of the points being made.

What is ridiculous is that Dick Grayson's tenure as robin was just compared to Steph tenure as Robin that is what is ridiculous.

Dick was Robin for over 4 decades. In terms of time in the role, NO Robin comes even close, and no Robin ever will. (And we all know that Damian WILL graduate at some point).

But to me, yeah, Dick, Jason, Tim, Steph, and Damian are equally Robins.

[sunofdarkchild]

Harley wasn't created to be a Batman character, she was created to be a one off in an episode of a cartoon...
Joker wasn't created to be a Batman character, he was created to be a one off in a Batman story...
Bane wasn't created to be a Batman character, he was created to be a one off in a Batman event...

I'm not even sure what your logic even is.

You said she was nothing more than a Tim character. I pointed out that it was never true. Her creation has nothing to do with Tim, unlike everyone you brought up who was created for Batman in some way or another, and her continued use had nothing to do with Tim other than his book being where it made the most sense to use her, and that she was treated as an equal protagonist and not even a side character.

You seem to have a thing for comparing Steph to villains.

[darkseidpwns]

Seems like you feel pretty strongly about it, too?

Nopes, makes no difference to me. Certain fans just want her to be acknowledged as Robin not because they see her as Robin but simply because they want to secure her place in the mythos. It all boils down to insecurity really, the Batman writers usually have no reason to care about anyone in the Batfamily minus the 4 Robins and Babs. The hope is that acknowledging that time will result in some sort of permanence or security in her position. I understand it but I dont think it'll happen and even if it did then she'd still be insecure. Take JPV, what did being Azbat got him in the long run? Bane has gone on to star in various media(wiki even has a separate page for it) but JPV who was literally the Batman that defeated Bane gets nothing. I dont see it as JPV getting screwed. He was part of someone elses story, he was part of something much bigger than himself. People on the forums here forget this, they expect some parity between Batman and the rest,wont happen then comes Dick, then Babs etc.

Similarly there is no comparison between Steph and the 4 Robins.

[darkseidpwns]

You said she was nothing more than a Tim character. I pointed out that it was never true. Her creation has nothing to do with Tim, unlike everyone you brought up who was created for Batman in some way or another, and her continued use had nothing to do with Tim other than his book being where it made the most sense to use her, and that she was treated as an equal protagonist and not even a side character.

You seem to have a thing for comparing Steph to villains.

She debuts in a Tim book, starred as his gf and supporting character and yet her character had nothing to do with Tim? okaay. Clearly ol Chuck created her so that she could be Robin a decade later for 2 months and then Batgirl half a decade after that under the pens of different writers. Such is the genious behind her creation, such extraordinary long term planning people.

I compare her to characters who like her put on a suit so that the company could demonstrate why such characters were not worthy of their mantles. I'll give any example that is similar to Steph's whether they are hero, villain or a civilian.
The common theme is worthiness.

[sunofdarkchild]

She debuts in a Tim book, starred as his gf and supporting character and yet her character had nothing to do with Tim? okaay. Clearly ol Chuck created her so that she could be Robin a decade later for 2 months and then Batgirl half a decade after that under the pens of different writers. Such is the genious behind her creation, such extraordinary long term planning people.

I compare her to characters who like her put on a suit so that the company could demonstrate why such characters were not worthy of their mantles. I'll give any example that is similar to Steph's whether they are hero, villain or a civilian.
The common theme is worthiness.

No. She debuted in Detective Comics before Tim's ongoing got started. She was a supporting character for Tim, but that was not why she was being written. She was being written for her own sake.

You are not comparing her to characters who are like her. You are just throwing out names and making random comparisons. Bringing up Hank Henshaw because he pretended to be the original Superman doesn't make any point and doesn't say anything about Steph's character or situation.

[darkseidpwns]

No. She debuted in Detective Comics before Tim's ongoing got started. She was a supporting character for Tim, but that was not why she was being written. She was being written for her own sake.

You are not comparing her to characters who are like her. You are just throwing out names and making random comparisons. Bringing up Hank Henshaw because he pretended to be the original Superman doesn't make any point and doesn't say anything about Steph's character or situation.

She was certainly not written for her own sake during War Drums/any time she showed up as Robin. Even the time Kon came to Gotham it was about Tim.
Azbat, Eradicator etc

[Aioros22]

I don't know if it has been mentioned already, but when we consider the question with Dick, Jason, Tim and Damien being considered as "true" Robins ... I did not actually vote myself, but wasn't Jason killed off way back when, because they put it to a vote with the fans, and the majority of the fans wanted him dead?

The vote in favor of killing him did not win by any great margin, and really I would guess probably the greatest of the animosity towards him was just that there was "only one true Robin," so you need to kill off the poseur. I would have loved if they'd just let Steph fill the role of Robin for years ... but, even if they had, I don't think we should kid ourselves that some folks would have been super resistant to the idea, regardless.

Also yeah, I forgot that Earth-2 Huntress and Power Girl eventually got back to their own world. It's too bad, because I liked the dynamic with her and Damien, the one time I saw them work together. It was actually the first time I liked him.

That`s a fair debate pick and one of the hard questions to ask. I decided not to shy away from it since it seems pertinent here.

The reason Jason is considered a "true" Robin is because his impact as Robin made a printing lasting impression in the narrative of the franchise and it`s the foundation for an evolution of character that is also popular as the Red Hood. You can`t have one without the other. Jason can benefit for having been Robin in perhaps the line`s most sucessefuly experimental period ever: late 70`s to 80`s and his mark on stories like The Cult, 10 Knights, the DKR saga, etc is undeniably crisp. Those stories without him as an important subject would lose in translation. He was also th serving Robin during Crisis and the major events that came afterwards that helped defined the new DCU chronology: Legends and Millenium, so another thing is that in that period of 5 years or so, he got to be read for a different segment of readers. The old ones and new who came to the fold after the rounding sucess of publishing a major wide crossover.

Even after he`s come back, his impact during his run in the bright suit is still strong. Some will way is less to varing degrees but fact remains is still there. More than almost anyone else save Dick and now Damian. Tim, despite having had an ongoing for decades seems to lost more in comparison than Jason did. This is weird and staggering to a level but as the debate goes is a strong point to bring.

Jason is essential in the ongoing chemistry that Batman shares with Joker, making these three feel hugely important marketing wise. You just need to see how often it`s been translated in other media after the comics, since his return (what a decade now?) The Under The Red Hood animated, (finally) The Dark Knight Returns, Dawn of Justice, Suicide Squad, Arkham knight and Injustice 2. I can even pick the ongoing mistery of the Red X persona over Teen Titans to add to it. His presnce and surrounding mistery places him in the top 4 most subjected Robin to several media, which not surpringingly, are the ones the fanbase calls "true Robins".

Lastly, it is because the stunt itself lost its power in defining terms. In a Newsarama interview by the time Winnick was around the title, O`Neill cites the following: "I heard it was one guy, who programmed his computer to dial the thumbs down number every ninety seconds for eight hours, who made the difference."[3] The interview is saved in the Titans Tower page. Anyway, that is way too much information to just be something he heard about.

O'Neil would later repeat the claim with further specifics: "I heard it was a lawyer who was using a MacIntosh and lived in California—I obviously don't have hard information on this, but I heard someone out there programmed his computer to dial it every couple of minutes, and since there was only about 65 votes that made the difference, if that story is true, that guy, that guy killed Jason Todd!"[12] Batman Under the Red Hood Blu-ray featurette, Robin's Requiem: The Tale of Jason Todd.

On the chance you take what he says with a grain of salt since these two statements were made by the time Jason was returning anyhway take mention of the backlash that followed the arc and how the plan for Batman to fly solo retreated quickly.

Fact of the matter is, Jason has a clear defined legacy with the suit and it was used to not only upgrade but expad and evolve the character to the more popular current ileteration. Steph has none of that lasting statement. "War Games" is simply swept under the rug.

[Aioros22]

I should clarify. I wasn't referring to the title of thread just some of the points being made.

What is ridiculous is that Dick Grayson's tenure as robin was just compared to Steph tenure as Robin that is what is ridiculous.

It`s not the tenure itself that would be debated (because in that term, there`s none) but how valid some points brought in to qualify characters. For example, the "disobeying" rule of thumb.

If Steph isn`t considered a "true" Robin it got little to do with breaking rules since they all done it, including Dick. Most, if not all, tangled with death or got benched one time or another. That`s a qualifier and I don`t feel anyone is sacred to be above discussing.

[millernumber1]

Harley wasn't created to be a Batman character, she was created to be a one off in an episode of a cartoon...
Joker wasn't created to be a Batman character, he was created to be a one off in a Batman story...
Bane wasn't created to be a Batman character, he was created to be a one off in a Batman event...

I'm not even sure what your logic even is.

Bane was not created to be a one-off. Steph was created to be a one-off. Do you ever check your facts?

You seem to have a thing for comparing Steph to villains.

I think it's clear that for some posters, Steph is a villain, stealing time from those who deserve it.

Nopes, makes no difference to me. Certain fans just want her to be acknowledged as Robin not because they see her as Robin but simply because they want to secure her place in the mythos. It all boils down to insecurity really, the Batman writers usually have no reason to care about anyone in the Batfamily minus the 4 Robins and Babs. The hope is that acknowledging that time will result in some sort of permanence or security in her position. I understand it but I dont think it'll happen and even if it did then she'd still be insecure. Take JPV, what did being Azbat got him in the long run? Bane has gone on to star in various media(wiki even has a separate page for it) but JPV who was literally the Batman that defeated Bane gets nothing. I dont see it as JPV getting screwed. He was part of someone elses story, he was part of something much bigger than himself. People on the forums here forget this, they expect some parity between Batman and the rest,wont happen then comes Dick, then Babs etc.

Similarly there is no comparison between Steph and the 4 Robins.

Insecurity also drives the millions of posts about how Batman doesn't get enough wins in Tec, eh?

For you there is no comparison. For others, there is (see also: poll at the top of the topic).

She debuts in a Tim book, starred as his gf and supporting character and yet her character had nothing to do with Tim? okaay. Clearly ol Chuck created her so that she could be Robin a decade later for 2 months and then Batgirl half a decade after that under the pens of different writers. Such is the genious behind her creation, such extraordinary long term planning people.

I compare her to characters who like her put on a suit so that the company could demonstrate why such characters were not worthy of their mantles. I'll give any example that is similar to Steph's whether they are hero, villain or a civilian.
The common theme is worthiness.

Zero facts. Debuts in Tec, wasn't his GF for 50 issues.

Chuck created her as a one-off, and her tale grew in the telling. And yes, he did intend for her to be Robin.

You compare War Games to Knightfall and War of the Supermen. The purpose of those stories are very different. War Games is not saying "Steph shouldn't be Robin because ___." If you are saying that, you are pushing an agenda way past what the text supports.

You'll give any example, regardless of logic, despite the fact that much stronger examples (Helena Bertinelli's time in the Batgirl costume, for just one example) have already been discussed, because scraping the bottom of the barrel to troll fans of Steph as Robin is worthwhile.

[sunofdarkchild]

A direct quote from Dixon:

Batman would have been impressed by Steph’s work ethic and dogged determination. Both of these were at the core of her character. She would have worked harder at being Robin than anyone else had. Even Tim. In the end though, Batman would find himself hampered by the responsibility of having a female sidekick. His natural, “preux chevalier” instincts to protect her would have made their working relationship impossible.

Source: http://www.cbr.com/comic-legends-was...o-years-early/

Dixon's plan was for Steph to temporarily take over as Robin while Tim became Blue Beetle (I know), and that she would be good at it. The problem would be Batman.

Ironically, that's pretty close to what happened, and it even dovetails with my theory of why Batman kept hiring and firing her and hiring her again during that period. He knew her skills and drive were good enough (He outright said she had the potential to be better than Tim), but he couldn't disconnect from his worry about her safety the way he could with Tim and the others, so he pushed her away. She got past his 'I'm the angry all-the-time' defenses.

Also ironically, it means that judging by the reasons Tim wanted to be Robin in the first place, to be someone who gives Batman pause and makes him consider the risks, Steph would have been the best Robin. Obviously that is far from the only standard, but that was the whole point of Tim's origin and the explanation for why Batman needs a Robin in the first place. But Batman rejected that reason for having a Robin.

[Godlike13]

Don't confuse not thinking Steph is a true Robin with not liking her.

[millernumber1]

Don't confuse not thinking Steph is a true Robin with not liking her.

I know there are many Steph fans who don't like her time as Robin, or don't think it counts. The position I'm specifically arguing against is people who think Steph doesn't matter, isn't a worthwhile character, and her time as Robin is irrelevant.

[darkseidpwns]

Bane was not created to be a one-off. Steph was created to be a one-off. Do you ever check your facts?

More than you, go read the original post discussing this particular point and then come back.

I think it's clear that for some posters, Steph is a villain, stealing time from those who deserve it.

Waay to miss the point again and I'm usually more of a villains fans than a hero fan.

Insecurity also drives the millions of posts about how Batman doesn't get enough wins in Tec, eh?

For you there is no comparison. For others, there is (see also: poll at the top of the topic).

What does that have to do with this? Batman fans aren't insecure about him disappearing from the face of the Earth at any given time.
A poll which Steph is handily losing and this a site of hardcore comic nuts.

Zero facts. Debuts in Tec, wasn't his GF for 50 issues.

Still spent a decade as a Tim supporting character, she didn't break out on her own truly until she became Batgirl. But yeah ok I acknowledge I was wrong about this one.

Chuck created her as a one-off, and her tale grew in the telling. And yes, he did intend for her to be Robin.

He didn't make her Robin did he? it didn't make it to print so your point is meaningless.

You compare War Games to Knightfall and War of the Supermen. The purpose of those stories are very different. War Games is not saying "Steph shouldn't be Robin because ___." If you are saying that, you are pushing an agenda way past what the text supports.

You'll give any example, regardless of logic, despite the fact that much stronger examples (Helena Bertinelli's time in the Batgirl costume, for just one example) have already been discussed, because scraping the bottom of the barrel to troll fans of Steph as Robin is worthwhile.

War Games was about a girl who screwed up in a desperate gamble to become Robin then dies so that the real Robin could come back and get some manpain/development. The point is rather clear. I'm pushing an agenda past the text? when its you guys talking about some fantasy of Chuck's that never made it to print as facts.
I gave suitable examples, Azbat and Eradicator are valid examples, you're just clinging on to Henshaw with the strawman logic of "he's a villain". If Steph is a true Robin then Eradicator is absolutely a true Superman. Only difference is that he doesn't have insecure fans who're worried about his importance to the Superman mythology.
Troll Steph fans? how many of you are even here on this forum? 2? what would I even gain from it? its not even as if the poll is going in a direction I dont want, c'mon.
At the end of the day Steph fans hate War Games, they hate what it did to her, they want it to be forgotten/retconned/buried and yet when DC does pretend it doesn't exist then the fans whine about her not being acknowledged as Robin even though that is directly linked with War Games? what kind of logic is this? this more than anything puzzles me. It comes across as a spoiled brat whining away illogically till he gets what he wants.

Believe me I have no problem with DC acknowledging her as Robin but her legacy as Robin is War Games so in order for her tenure/arc to be considered complete that also needs to be brought up every time her tenure as Robin is brought up. That period is understandably controversial which is why DC just ignores the entirety of it.