My theory on why Jane and Captain America are worthy

[WaxHawk]

An interesting theory, but how would it explain random nameless EMT, Beta Ray Bill, Storm and others who Thor did not know well or at all at the time who have demonstrated worthiness? (Yes, sometimes in alternate realities, but still, I am working under the assumption that most alternate Mjolnirs have a similar enchantment, and the story is too, hence the inclusion of Ultimate Mjolnir)

As for War Thor, I think most people by now are expecting the costume nods to Odin to be red herring, and i think that too, I'm fairly certain it is not Odin, the dialogue just did not fit him at all. And i do agree Volstagg is a solid choice based on the dialogue, and it could fit his role on the council, after becoming frustrated with how it has been frozen and unable to do anything about Malekith. But there is another option who the dialogue and recent character development would fit, and who would have more reason to hide his identity than Volstagg would, and would be more likely to incorporate bits of Odin into that disguise.... Loki. And if it is him, then this theory kinda falls apart, since he and his brother are not exactly on the best of terms at the moment, and it is mostly Thor being mad at Loki rahter than the other way around for once, and Mjolnir has known this for years.

I think the enchantment has simply mutated, or worn away, so that the sentient storm at it's core is making the decisions, so there are no hard and fast rules, more like guidelines. But I think it's sentience is limited, and probably does not understand politics or that Hydra is bad by default kinda thing. It just can sense that Steve genuinely wants to help the world, and Hydra Cap DOES want to help the world, and believes he is the one who CAN save the world, he just is going about it in a really bad way. I think what made Odinson unworthy was that while he still wanted to help people, he had lost faith in himself being the one who COULD do that, because he bought into what Gorr said. Steve still has faith that he CAN save the world. So does Jane. Presumably so does War Thor, whether it is Volstagg, Loki, or someone else. So like, I guess it is twofold, desire to help, and the confidence that they can. I know War Thor's dialogue expressed self doubt about his worthiness, but then as you mentioned, Odinson himself often expressed doubts about his worthiness, but I think still believed that what he was doing did help. That's the part I think Thor lost, he began to believe he was doing more harm than good because of what Gorr said about gods, and counting himself among them rather than seeing himself as an individual.

Edited to add - also, to an earlier point about the cosmic storm, I do think Mjolnir is more in charge than some people think. When Jane goes into Thor mode, it is not just her appearance and abilities that change, it is her personality as well. Her mode of speech changes, and she becomes much more impulsive, more black and white in her thinking, more judgemental. There have also been a couple instances now where she lets Mjolnir act without any direct input, allows it to make decisions. Two main instances come to mind, the fight with Loki, she was flailing around at him completely ineffectually, until she said two words to Mjolnir, "end this" and it just.... did. She didn't direct it in any way, she just let it go, and let Mjolnir, not her, win the fight. Second instance was on Dario's floating base right before Mjolnir took her form. She left it hanging in the air in another room with instructions to hold off the Viking hulks. Yeah, in both instances she gave verbal directions, but Mjolnir still was left to make the decisions on how it carried them out on it's own. How much of this is Jane treating it as a partner more than a tool vs Mjolnir kinda altering her mind is up for debate, but Mjolnir is still displaying a great deal of agency.

So yeah, I don't think we can eliminate a free will aspect with Mjolnir, which may mean making decisions that contradict earlier ones based on the needs of what it sees as needed in the moment.

Also, are we sure Steve doesn't actually have the hammer of Thorr? You know, the bizarro unworthy version? I know Thor dropped it When fighting the Beyonders, but that encounter likely never happened anymore, so we aren't really sure where it is.

Thought provoking post.

My knowledge of Pre-Aaron Thor stories is very limited - so I can't say too much about them. Absolutely there might be something in there that might kill my theory. From my understanding of Thor's history is a bit convoluted/inconsistent/messy and Aaron appears to be picking/choosing/cleaning up things as he goes. Also to the question of alternate realities, my theory relies on characters alternate reality dopplelganger having interactions with Thor in their reality. What I mean is, say War Thor is Volstagg, the Volstagg of the Ultimate reality has a similar relationship to the main universes. The Ultimate hammer recognises Odinson but knows that he isn't 'her Thor' but would still let Odinson pick her up.

If Loki is War Thor, my theory is ........ashes.

My theory too requires some form of agency/sentience on Mjolnir's behalf. She is instrumental in initially choosing Thor and she is equally instrumental now in helping Jane, the examples you gave, for me, clearly point to that. I attribute (slightly) different motives to her. I definitely think she is more benign then you do.

I certainly don't know if it is the 'unworthy' hammer that Steve has. The fact Thor/Jane wasn't in issue one leads, in my mind, to it being Mjolnir.

I nearly mentioned in my original post the 'unworthy' hammer. I wouldn't mind it appearing again as it would test my theory. Most people's theory's (including yours) would imply that all people/beings are either worthy or unworthy, so theoretically everyone should be able to pick up one of the hammers. My theory adds a third possibility - neither - people/beings that Thor/Odinson hasn't made a determination about either way.

[WaxHawk]

Certainly whosever holds Mijolnir recives a makeover, but I don't think is in the imagen of Odinson. Pre-hammer teen Thor in the God Butcher, looked really different from hammer-holder adult Thor. The only constant in every holder, as portrayed in Thor Corps, is the silver wings, maybe the storm has a fetish for wings, who knows. Now that I'm writing this I noticed that Odin never changed when he pick up Mjolnir.

Mjolnir is the name Odin gave the hammer. As far as I know the librarian, the Shi'ar Gods and Jane refer to the storm simply as Mother Storm.

Aaah Mother Storm that rings a bell. The name is important for my theory. I'm yet to read a good in-universe reason as to why the wielders of the hammer are called Thor. Part of my theory tries to explain that.

Perhaps I'm completely misreading the 'transformation'. I certainly am if I am wrong.

[Beorg]

Well, this is still doesnt explain why spoilers:

Captain Hydra is still worthy.

end of spoilers

Cosmic cube reality bending, the new ''Magic, ain't gotta explain ****''.

[Raye]

About the appearance change, head wings on a helmet do appear to be a constant, but sometimes the wielder does not change at all. I think the appearance change is probably dependent on what the wielder needs in order to be effective. Odinson, he's fine as is. No need for a change. But Jane is sickly, and wants to hide her identity, so her disguise makes her strong and healthy looking, and also provides a mask. War Thor, presumably, based on the name chosen for himself, needs to be seen an utter badass to fill the role he thinks is needed, and also needs to hide his true identity, so the hammer provides an appropriate look for that role. Most others probably have less specific needs so they just get general Thor like costume details. But I suspect that if the wielder wished, they could pick it up with no change to their appearance. we will have to see more though to say for sure.

Thought provoking post.

My knowledge of Pre-Aaron Thor stories is very limited - so I can't say too much about them. Absolutely there might be something in there that might kill my theory. From my understanding of Thor's history is a bit convoluted/inconsistent/messy and Aaron appears to be picking/choosing/cleaning up things as he goes. Also to the question of alternate realities, my theory relies on characters alternate reality dopplelganger having interactions with Thor in their reality. What I mean is, say War Thor is Volstagg, the Volstagg of the Ultimate reality has a similar relationship to the main universes. The Ultimate hammer recognises Odinson but knows that he isn't 'her Thor' but would still let Odinson pick her up.

If Loki is War Thor, my theory is ........ashes.

My theory too requires some form of agency/sentience on Mjolnir's behalf. She is instrumental in initially choosing Thor and she is equally instrumental now in helping Jane, the examples you gave, for me, clearly point to that. I attribute (slightly) different motives to her. I definitely think she is more benign then you do.

I certainly don't know if it is the 'unworthy' hammer that Steve has. The fact Thor/Jane wasn't in issue one leads, in my mind, to it being Mjolnir.

I nearly mentioned in my original post the 'unworthy' hammer. I wouldn't mind it appearing again as it would test my theory. Most people's theory's (including yours) would imply that all people/beings are either worthy or unworthy, so theoretically everyone should be able to pick up one of the hammers. My theory adds a third possibility - neither - people/beings that Thor/Odinson hasn't made a determination about either way.

Thor's history is very messy and contradictory, which is part of why it's so hard to actually come up with a theory that covers everything.

I am not sure if i quite fall into the either worthy or unworthy camp. I think Mjolnir uses a set of rules/guidelines to narrow down potential candidates, but can sometimes makes exceptions based on the circumstances. So, basically, GENERALLY the same sorts of qualities will make someone worthy or not, but Mjolnir can be fickle and make exceptions, too. Like, when Loki lifted it before, during Axis, he was a complete douche, he actually became a WORSE person than he was before, even though he THOUGHT he was good. Kinda the same situation as Cap, actually, come to think of it. But i think there, what actually happened was that Mjolnir was making a temporary exception because if he hadn't lifted it right then, Thor would have killed him, and I think Mjolnir was protecting them both from that happening. Probably protecting Thor from himself more than Loki. But if Hydra Cap technically does check all the boxes Mjolnir is looking for in a wielder, which probably includes desire to help/make the world better, confidence that they can, as i mentioned before, probably honor, bravery, selflessness.... I think Mjolnir could go for it. And of those, I actually don't think Cap being Hydra automatically cancels out any of them. He's still brave, he's still trying to help people, (though in a really warped kind of way) he's still got an honor of sorts.

We also have to consider that maybe Ultimate Mjolnir could have somewhat different criteria, as well, so may not actually be all that relevant to what makes someone worthy of 616 Mjolnir. I mean, it might. As i said, I do think most would have a similar enchantment, since most Thors across the multiverse do display similar qualities, and Ultimate Thor wasn't a bad guy. But on the other hand, we do have the Unworthy hammer, which clearly was different.

[Grim Ghost]

Yeah, the rules never really made much sense. Too many writers have wanted to show how awesome another character was by showing them wielding Mjolnir. There isn't any real consistency to it. I don't think it's possible to make any real sense of it, though I can see how it's fun to try!

[Alpha to Omega]

Hasn't Dr. Doom held the hammer before? Heck, Doom was one of the purest people you could get, if you want to be fair. The guy took on the Beyonders and won! But that hardly makes him good. Cap truly thinks he's doing the right thing, and has the will to make it happen. He's very pure in his intent. That's what makes him worthy.

Doom has never lifted Mjolnir in the main Marvel universe. He attempted to lift it during JMS' FF run but failed. Ben Grimm also failed to lift it in the same arc

An interesting theory, but how would it explain random nameless EMT.

The nameless EMT lifting Mjolnir is an urban myth. In all the years it's been mentioned, no one has ever been able to cite the issue it supposedly happened in or post a scan of it.

[AgSurfer]

For me it was something that had to be similar between Beta-Ray Bill, Black Widow, Captain America(sometimes), and Jane Foster. I don't include DC characters, Squirrel Girl, or other nonsensical characters because them wielding the hammer are gimmicks from the writing/art staff. I also don't include Bor or Odin because they are masters of the enchantment. So for me its someone who doesn't just lift the hammer, but actually wields it during a time that Thor is perfectly capable of wielding it. He's not dead or incapacitated, he's either not worthy or just not in possession of the hammer. So for me what makes one worthy lies in the first one who picked up Thor's hammer and was imbued with Thor's power...Beta Ray Bill.
In my opinion, I'm not going into a long drawn out analysis, the characteristic in these people who are also worthy is they they are willing to give up their lives for others. Now that's a common phrase, but its something that goes beyond someone saying "I'd die for you" While someone saying that might be a true statement its far from someone having the attitude that "Your life , and the life of any other is worth me giving up my own." Its self-sacrifice taken to the nth degree. Its such a part of their nature that's you can't separate it from the other attributes that define them. Beta-Ray had that nature for his people in stasis. Black Widow had that nature for Mother Russia and her people. Capt would seem to have that nature as well, but he seems to be able to slip in and out of it, probably due to his practically in assessing a situation, Jane Foster...well we'll see if she has the nature or if a master of the enchantment has made it so.
Odin wanted Thor to learn humility because at the time there was no one more important to Thor than Thor. Whether or not Odin realized the enchantment would define worthiness in such strict terms is not known, but in my opinion is irrelevant because for such great power you need an extreme restriction.
And that's my opinion.

[Overhazard]

Yes, it does. Mjolnir is doing what Thor/Odinson would want. These two characters have demonstrated mutual respect many times. Even if Thor/Odinson knows about this he hasn't had any contact with Mjolnir to 'remove' the worthiness of this character.

Maybe it's because:
spoilers:

Hydra Cap is the best kind of villain, not a mustache twirler, but a villain that believes that's he's the hero. He truly believes that he's acting in the best interest of humanity, and that would make him worthy of Mjolnir, Like how Bast gave doctor doom a pass during doomwar.

end of spoilers

[Rosebunse]

An interesting theory, but how would it explain random nameless EMT, Beta Ray Bill, Storm and others who Thor did not know well or at all at the time who have demonstrated worthiness? (Yes, sometimes in alternate realities, but still, I am working under the assumption that most alternate Mjolnirs have a similar enchantment, and the story is too, hence the inclusion of Ultimate Mjolnir)

As for War Thor, I think most people by now are expecting the costume nods to Odin to be red herring, and i think that too, I'm fairly certain it is not Odin, the dialogue just did not fit him at all. And i do agree Volstagg is a solid choice based on the dialogue, and it could fit his role on the council, after becoming frustrated with how it has been frozen and unable to do anything about Malekith. But there is another option who the dialogue and recent character development would fit, and who would have more reason to hide his identity than Volstagg would, and would be more likely to incorporate bits of Odin into that disguise.... Loki. And if it is him, then this theory kinda falls apart, since he and his brother are not exactly on the best of terms at the moment, and it is mostly Thor being mad at Loki rahter than the other way around for once, and Mjolnir has known this for years.

I think the enchantment has simply mutated, or worn away, so that the sentient storm at it's core is making the decisions, so there are no hard and fast rules, more like guidelines. But I think it's sentience is limited, and probably does not understand politics or that Hydra is bad by default kinda thing. It just can sense that Steve genuinely wants to help the world, and Hydra Cap DOES want to help the world, and believes he is the one who CAN save the world, he just is going about it in a really bad way. I think what made Odinson unworthy was that while he still wanted to help people, he had lost faith in himself being the one who COULD do that, because he bought into what Gorr said. Steve still has faith that he CAN save the world. So does Jane. Presumably so does War Thor, whether it is Volstagg, Loki, or someone else. So like, I guess it is twofold, desire to help, and the confidence that they can. I know War Thor's dialogue expressed self doubt about his worthiness, but then as you mentioned, Odinson himself often expressed doubts about his worthiness, but I think still believed that what he was doing did help. That's the part I think Thor lost, he began to believe he was doing more harm than good because of what Gorr said about gods, and counting himself among them rather than seeing himself as an individual.

Edited to add - also, to an earlier point about the cosmic storm, I do think Mjolnir is more in charge than some people think. When Jane goes into Thor mode, it is not just her appearance and abilities that change, it is her personality as well. Her mode of speech changes, and she becomes much more impulsive, more black and white in her thinking, more judgemental. There have also been a couple instances now where she lets Mjolnir act without any direct input, allows it to make decisions. Two main instances come to mind, the fight with Loki, she was flailing around at him completely ineffectually, until she said two words to Mjolnir, "end this" and it just.... did. She didn't direct it in any way, she just let it go, and let Mjolnir, not her, win the fight. Second instance was on Dario's floating base right before Mjolnir took her form. She left it hanging in the air in another room with instructions to hold off the Viking hulks. Yeah, in both instances she gave verbal directions, but Mjolnir still was left to make the decisions on how it carried them out on it's own. How much of this is Jane treating it as a partner more than a tool vs Mjolnir kinda altering her mind is up for debate, but Mjolnir is still displaying a great deal of agency.

So yeah, I don't think we can eliminate a free will aspect with Mjolnir, which may mean making decisions that contradict earlier ones based on the needs of what it sees as needed in the moment.

Also, are we sure Steve doesn't actually have the hammer of Thorr? You know, the bizarro unworthy version? I know Thor dropped it When fighting the Beyonders, but that encounter likely never happened anymore, so we aren't really sure where it is.

It should be pointed out that during AXIS, Loki actually was able to lift and use the hammer quite well while inverted. It should also be noted that Inverted Loki was a jerk, but a jerk with a purpose who wasn't going to let Odinson get back to Earth. So I can see Loki being able to lift the hammer.

Maybe it's because:
spoilers:

Hydra Cap is the best kind of villain, not a mustache twirler, but a villain that believes that's he's the hero. He truly believes that he's acting in the best interest of humanity, and that would make him worthy of Mjolnir, Like how Bast gave doctor doom a pass during doomwar.

end of spoilers

That's honestly what's made Secret Empire so freaking disturbing. It's still Steve Rogers, who really does think he's doing the right thing. Like sending dreadnoughts to destroy a city.

[2cats]

You were right all along. Someone pointed me out that the worthiness spells was cast when Thor was expulsed from Asgard, so it does refer to Thor Odinson.

I've been reading Journey in to Mystery, the first isues, to get all the Kirby feels for the new movie and I found out that it was actually Thor who come up with the worthiness concept. He had been trying to lift it since very young and every time he failed, he told himself "one day I'll be worthy" and he went on doing more risky stuff each time, not always politicaly correct actions, but always what was needed to protect others. Everybody thought that he would eventually give up or die trying, but he didn't and one day he lifted Mjolnir acomplishing two impossible feats by sheer determination:

-break the anti-lifting enchantment put by Odin.
-convince/tame the storm to help him.

When he was banished from Asgard, Odin modifided his enchantment from exclusively allowing The Allfather to lift the hammer to whoever is worthy as defined by Thor. Which I conclude is: Do whatever needs to be done to protect others.
I think that could explaine:
Jane: She belives that Earth needs a Thor, so she picks up the hammer regardless of the quimio wearing of her system.
Steve: He is align with the bad guys, Hydra, but he does it to save Earth.
Beta Ray Bill: was the sole protectector of his whole race.
Battle World Doom: He did what he did to save the multiverse.
Axis Loki: save earth from axis Thor.
even DC characters: Both partys were tryinng to save their universes on those crossovers.
Don't know about Widow or Ororo, haven't read those sagas.

It can also explain why Thor Odinson is unworthy too. If Gorr is right and gods do harm mortals, then as long as he is a god he can't protect them.

The prize for the holder is indeed the power of Thor, his determination. That could explain Jane's personality change.

On a side note, I like to think that since both the Mother Storm and Thor are equaly unyielding they see each other as an extension of themselves.

[Raye]

For me it was something that had to be similar between Beta-Ray Bill, Black Widow, Captain America(sometimes), and Jane Foster. I don't include DC characters, Squirrel Girl, or other nonsensical characters because them wielding the hammer are gimmicks from the writing/art staff. I also don't include Bor or Odin because they are masters of the enchantment. So for me its someone who doesn't just lift the hammer, but actually wields it during a time that Thor is perfectly capable of wielding it. He's not dead or incapacitated, he's either not worthy or just not in possession of the hammer. So for me what makes one worthy lies in the first one who picked up Thor's hammer and was imbued with Thor's power...Beta Ray Bill.
In my opinion, I'm not going into a long drawn out analysis, the characteristic in these people who are also worthy is they they are willing to give up their lives for others. Now that's a common phrase, but its something that goes beyond someone saying "I'd die for you" While someone saying that might be a true statement its far from someone having the attitude that "Your life , and the life of any other is worth me giving up my own." Its self-sacrifice taken to the nth degree. Its such a part of their nature that's you can't separate it from the other attributes that define them. Beta-Ray had that nature for his people in stasis. Black Widow had that nature for Mother Russia and her people. Capt would seem to have that nature as well, but he seems to be able to slip in and out of it, probably due to his practically in assessing a situation, Jane Foster...well we'll see if she has the nature or if a master of the enchantment has made it so.
Odin wanted Thor to learn humility because at the time there was no one more important to Thor than Thor. Whether or not Odin realized the enchantment would define worthiness in such strict terms is not known, but in my opinion is irrelevant because for such great power you need an extreme restriction.
And that's my opinion.

You were right all along. Someone pointed me out that the worthiness spells was cast when Thor was expulsed from Asgard, so it does refer to Thor Odinson.

I've been reading Journey in to Mystery, the first isues, to get all the Kirby feels for the new movie and I found out that it was actually Thor who come up with the worthiness concept. He had been trying to lift it since very young and every time he failed, he told himself "one day I'll be worthy" and he went on doing more risky stuff each time, not always politicaly correct actions, but always what was needed to protect others. Everybody thought that he would eventually give up or die trying, but he didn't and one day he lifted Mjolnir acomplishing two impossible feats by sheer determination:

-break the anti-lifting enchantment put by Odin.
-convince/tame the storm to help him.

When he was banished from Asgard, Odin modifided his enchantment from exclusively allowing The Allfather to lift the hammer to whoever is worthy as defined by Thor. Which I conclude is: Do whatever needs to be done to protect others.
I think that could explaine:
Jane: She belives that Earth needs a Thor, so she picks up the hammer regardless of the quimio wearing of her system.
Steve: He is align with the bad guys, Hydra, but he does it to save Earth.
Beta Ray Bill: was the sole protectector of his whole race.
Battle World Doom: He did what he did to save the multiverse.
Axis Loki: save earth from axis Thor.
even DC characters: Both partys were tryinng to save their universes on those crossovers.
Don't know about Widow or Ororo, haven't read those sagas.

It can also explain why Thor Odinson is unworthy too. If Gorr is right and gods do harm mortals, then as long as he is a god he can't protect them.

The prize for the holder is indeed the power of Thor, his determination. That could explain Jane's personality change.

On a side note, I like to think that since both the Mother Storm and Thor are equaly unyielding they see each other as an extension of themselves.

I think it's likely kind of a combo of these two posts, probably. Have to have the intent to help people on a grand scale, a real desire to make the world better with your actions, and be willing to die, or at least sacrifice something of great value to them, for that cause. I actually remember making a big long rambly post about the whole sacrifice aspect, and that was why Jane was chosen, since she knows damn well that being Thor is killing her. I don't know how I left that out in my earlier posts in this thread. But I think that the hammer is sentient does create some wiggle room. When Mjolnir took Jane's form, it told Jane that it chose her, (because.... and then it couldn't finish, but I think given the context of the scene, it was going to be something like the sacrifice part) so there is some element of CHOICE there, on Mjolnir's part. This helps explain some of the iffy cases that don't quite fit which have popped up over the years. And there have been some where you can't really wrap your head around it, for sure. But if Mjolnir is capable of choosing and bending the requirements from time to time, but GENERALLY sticks to a certain set of criteria, then it works out ok.

The problem, as we may be seeing with Steve and to an extent Doom and inverted Loki, is that a desire to make the world better and the willingness to sacrifice everything for that, while it sounds good and noble on the surface, can actually be interpreted kind of broadly, and can include some less than good qualities as well. It definitely covers the most instances of people who have demonstrated worthiness, though. But on the other hand, then we have the problem of that it may be too broad, so why haven't more people been able to lift it? why is it so incredibly rare for someone to be able to lift it, if the worthiness clause is seemingly so simple and open to broad interpretations? especially among supeheroes, where you'd think these would be fairly common traits. So i think there must be some ingredient or two we are still missing, which is i think where my 'confidence' thing may come in, since that is the one thing Thor Odinson lost. I can't really see how the whisper would make him want to help less, or make him less willing to sacrifice himself towards that end. But he lost confidence that what he was doing actually helped.

It kind of goes against the original story from way back, but i guess you do need a bit of arrogance in the mix, which all the people who have wielded it did have, a couple of them have been extremely arrogant. I mean, there is no one more arrogant than Doom. Just, i dunno, i guess it has to be directed in a positive way. more 'I'm so awesome that i can save the world and help everyone' than 'i'm so above all these insignificant peons' which does kind of strike me as a 'god' type quality. We saw the bad version in the most recent arc with the Shi'ar gods, who were extremely arrogant in a harmful way, contrasted with Jane.