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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    This is a straw man argument.
    How? The guy believes in wiping out most of humanity of today so that the multiplied future generations of the human race would not have to kill each other for resources.

  2. #182
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Superman has been written into situations where he has to kill or permit even greater evil. If that is a valid thing to...then much, much easier to do with Batman.

    Imagine a homicidal villain (Batman has a few...) is about to kill a kid, and the only certain way of preventing that is to seize a gun and shoot to kill the bad guy...then it would, I think, actually be completely out of character if Batman did not do just that.

    I really don’t think that the “no kill” policy is an integral part of the character..I think such a story could be written staying true to Bruce’s known personality.

  3. #183
    Incredible Member The no face guy's Avatar
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    Traditionally superheroes are supposed to be exemplars of morality, by upholding life for even those who don't deserve it.

    For instance, if I was Batman I wouldn't be able to live up to that high standard. I wouldn't kill the likes of Two Face or Penguin, but the Joker would be having an accidental misstep of a 20 story building.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    How? The guy believes in wiping out most of humanity of today so that the multiplied future generations of the human race would not have to kill each other for resources.
    Yeah and that is vastly different from killing the Joker in self defense or defense of others.

  5. #185
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    If we are keeping it real Batman would be more heroic as the Warden of Arkham than on the street fighting crime. Keeping the Gotham villains captured away from the public and never escaping jail would save far more lives than he does fighting crime.But heroically keeping people in jail doesn't make for good book I am not blaming the character of Batman for this flaw. This is the weakness of the genre the fact that comics have to be ongoing which means you have to keep villains alive and you use your interesting villains over and over.

    Also I have small solution to the problem l would make story called "The List" on the anniversary of his parents death every year, Batman goes into Arkham and other places beats the crap out of his 10(maybe more) worse villains leaving them pretty much unable to function until the next year when he comes around. It answers the question of knowing that he is responsible for what these people do after puts them in jail and it adds to boogeyman mythos for Batman to the criminals Gotham. It would also answer of what Gotham Police are doing as well, Every year they go through "the motions" of trying to stop Batman from beating the crap out of these bad guys but they are really happy that is doing it.

    Something like this would shift the narrative a little away from this convo and that is all I think it needs. With this you are just trying to shift the logic blame from Batman to elsewhere. If Batman captures them AND nearly maim them to death every year so they can't do anything. Can you really get mad at Batman for not stopping whoever breaks them out too?

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Yeah and that is vastly different from killing the Joker in self defense or defense of others.
    Killing Joker? You could still incap him and implant chips into his body to prevent him from committing crimes. Its just that comics want the popular villain to appear.
    Last edited by prepmaster; 07-30-2020 at 05:35 AM.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    Killing Joker? You could still incap him and implant chips into his body to prevent him from committing crimes. Its just that comics want the popular villain to appear.
    Exactly. It's just as easy to write a story where Joker is successfully sentenced to a lifetime in prison and stays there as it is to write any other kind of story. People tend to forget that. Batman killing him isn't necessary to prevent the deaths of fictional innocents (and let's face it, even if he was killed, he'd only be brought back less than a year later due to his popularity). It's only necessary if a.) someone wants to see Batman kill, and b.) someone just isn't interested in reading anymore Joker stories. In the latter case, there's an easy solution: just don't buy any stories featuring the Joker.
    Last edited by phonogram12; 07-31-2020 at 09:46 AM.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  8. #188
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Exactly. It's just as easy to write a story where Joker is successfully sentenced to a lifetime in prison and stays there as it is to write any other kind of story. People tend to forget that. Batman killing him isn't necessary to prevent the deaths of fictional innocents (and let's face it, even if he was killed, he'd only be brought back less than a year later due to his popularity). It's only necessary if a.) someone wants to see Batman kill, and b.) someone just isn't interested in reading anymore Joker stories. In the latter case, there's an easy solution: just don't buy any stories featuring the Joker.
    Saying "the writers can do X" doesn't mean it's a good idea though. I mean the writers wrote "Emperor Joker" where the Joker had the powers of Mxyzptlk. #1 thing he did? torture Batman! And by extension the entire JL, but hey, involving the League made sense in this one.

  9. #189
    Spectacular Member Stick Figure's Avatar
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    I get the no kill thing with old comics when the audience was kids but that’s long gone. Comics are for adults. Characters like Batman don’t need to be models of a certain morality. Tell good stories and if a character kills it shouldn’t be a big deal.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stick Figure View Post
    I get the no kill thing with old comics when the audience was kids but that’s long gone. Comics are for adults. Characters like Batman don’t need to be models of a certain morality. Tell good stories and if a character kills it shouldn’t be a big deal.
    I can agree that there are certain scenarios where Batman killing an opponent would be justified or allowable...

    ...But I would argue that even in the present, all possible steps should be taken to avoid even the vague appearance of Batman committing vigilante murder, and thus, since he can never really avoid being a vigilante, it’s simply best to only allow him to kill in situations where Superman or someone would be forced to kill (aka, a Darkseid or Doomsday kind of standard.)

    It’s not a little thing to have Batman claim some kind of moral high ground that other characters and real world actors don’t have; in a city like Gotham, where corrupt cops are often depicted as being exceptionally numerous and entrenched, and with a rogues gallery that features “Extremists of Order,” I’d say Batman benefits greatly from the same traits that lend themselves to the “too soft” criticism... because all too often, the “too soft” criticism in the real world comes from more fascistic or authoritarian forces that abuse real world authority.

    Giving Batman that rule gives him a nuanced but important distinction from a real world vigilante *and* from the sadly real world authorities who have failed in their duties and become threats to peace and the sanctity of life. Unless Batman gets deputized again, like he was in the Silver Age, I’d say that vigilante Batman really should operate with as much of a zero-tolerance policy towards avoidable killing as possible. People don’t want to whittle down his rogues gallery, and Batman with lethal weapons is honestly a bit boring to read because they ta’e some of the challenge out of it... so I’d say that writers should follow the general rule where if there *is* a way to avoid killing, Batman takes it, no matter how impractical or potentially dangerous to himself it is.

    And I’d say the standard applied by the Nolan films is actually pretty good: all the deaths he’s tied to there are either the result of circumstances where he can’t act to save people Because of the logistical problems + their own skill levels (the ninjas in the temple he blows up to escape, Ra’s himself aboard the train, Two-Face when Batman saves Gordon’s son), or when the stakes are so high that even a super powered being would be likely to make ruthless choices (the nuke truck in TDKR.)
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  11. #191
    Incredible Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stick Figure View Post
    […]
    Characters like Batman don’t need to be models of a certain morality
    […]
    Actually they must: be models of morality is what make them heroes. If they doesn't have that morality, they would be only crazy vigilantes (if not criminals) like Punisher or Lobo. Batman needs to return to be the hero he was before Knightfall, not to become a Punisher's clone.

  12. #192
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    Actually they must: be models of morality is what make them heroes. If they doesn't have that morality, they would be only crazy vigilantes (if not criminals) like Punisher or Lobo. Batman needs to return to be the hero he was before Knightfall, not to become a Punisher's clone.
    This. There's Punisher comics and 95% of action movie heroes. You should build characters into being more unique (not killing) and not more common

  13. #193
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    It's not the fact that Batman doesn't kill that bothers me.

    It's the fact that Joker never seems to get a punishment fitting to his crimes. The bigger the crime, the biger the punishment, otherwise there's no catharsis for the reader. A bank robber would be taken to prison for example, but a guy that's trying to take over the world should have his story end with the cops just taking him away in handcuffs. If we have the big crossover villain that threatening reality, the story needs to end with them being utterly destroyed somehow.

    Joker basically gets slaps on his wrist for his crimes. He commits huge city threatening crimes when tons of people die and gets the same punishment you'd give Condiment King. More Joker stories need to end with him suffering badly, such as "dying by his own hands" (think of what happened with Green Goblin on the Marvel side) or the classic "Nobody could have survived that" when he falls off a cliff or gets caught in an explosion or something. Yeah, we know he's not going to stay dead, but you leave him alone for at least a few months after that.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    It's not the fact that Batman doesn't kill that bothers me.

    It's the fact that Joker never seems to get a punishment fitting to his crimes. The bigger the crime, the biger the punishment, otherwise there's no catharsis for the reader. A bank robber would be taken to prison for example, but a guy that's trying to take over the world should have his story end with the cops just taking him away in handcuffs. If we have the big crossover villain that threatening reality, the story needs to end with them being utterly destroyed somehow.

    Joker basically gets slaps on his wrist for his crimes. He commits huge city threatening crimes when tons of people die and gets the same punishment you'd give Condiment King. More Joker stories need to end with him suffering badly, such as "dying by his own hands" (think of what happened with Green Goblin on the Marvel side) or the classic "Nobody could have survived that" when he falls off a cliff or gets caught in an explosion or something. Yeah, we know he's not going to stay dead, but you leave him alone for at least a few months after that.
    Insane people are not fully charged for their crimes. There are serial killers that don't get capitol punishment due to them being regarded as not having clear perception of right from wrong.

  15. #195
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    It's not the fact that Batman doesn't kill that bothers me.

    It's the fact that Joker never seems to get a punishment fitting to his crimes. The bigger the crime, the biger the punishment, otherwise there's no catharsis for the reader. A bank robber would be taken to prison for example, but a guy that's trying to take over the world should have his story end with the cops just taking him away in handcuffs. If we have the big crossover villain that threatening reality, the story needs to end with them being utterly destroyed somehow.

    Joker basically gets slaps on his wrist for his crimes. He commits huge city threatening crimes when tons of people die and gets the same punishment you'd give Condiment King. More Joker stories need to end with him suffering badly, such as "dying by his own hands" (think of what happened with Green Goblin on the Marvel side) or the classic "Nobody could have survived that" when he falls off a cliff or gets caught in an explosion or something. Yeah, we know he's not going to stay dead, but you leave him alone for at least a few months after that.
    That's fair and I guess the only death I know that fulfill that requirement is when Jokerized Tim killed him in Batman Beyond

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