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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member Mutant God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    Batman just catches the criminals. It isn't his job to kill them. The real question should be why does the state that Gotham City is in have no death penalty? Is there anyone left that thinks the Joker can be rehabilitated?
    My guess is that either Gotham's Government or the Court of Owls (or maybe both) have guys like Joker to keep around so that all the police force and vigilantes have their attention on them meanwhile the white collar criminals and government agencies can do what their want .

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Leading to these maimed criminals committing suicide or abandoning their kids resulting in even more orphans for Bruce Wayne to adopt and Batman to train as fodder.
    Which leads to Bruce Wayne's School for Gifted Orphans and Psychopaths lol.
    Skeeter: Hey time traveling O5 members of the X-Men We don't take kindly to people who create a time paradox around here!

    Bartender: Now calm down Skeeter they aint hurtin nobody.

    Skeeter: No! I wanna know som'in from the "O5" How come you cant go back to your own timeline in the first place and how come when Reed Richards "fixed" the universe you wasnt put back and how come the changes that happn to you dont happn to your present day selves?

    Bartender: Skeeter I dont want trouble

  2. #32
    Spectacular Member Batmaniac's Avatar
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    Because he's better than that.
    Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Yes he does. Pre-Batman, Gotham was such a corrupt shithole that it needed something as crazy as Batman to make it even somewhat salvageable. Nobody on the outside even remotely cared about it. Gordon already has doubts about trusting someone like Batman (at least in the early years), but he was desperate enough and cared enough about the innocent people of Gotham to give it a chance. There's nothing wrong with having a clear line he will not allow himself or Batman to cross in that scenario. It's not all or nothing.
    To which I must respond, exactly how does Batman's activities not corrupt the system further?
    Most of the time, he tracks down criminals after the fact, and the best he can do is deliver them to the authorities. However, the guy's a walking evidence contaminant. Everyone he busts can claim to being framed and avoid hard time that way. Moreover, he's no scarier than any mobster actually willing to kill those who oppose or betray him. The Nolan films soundly demonstrated that all his theatrics mean nothing against people who are actually willing to call his bluff. All in all, his methodology makes no sense, causing more harm than help in the long run.
    That’s not even getting into continuities where his existence actually directly leads to the rise of costumed villains like the Joker.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    If you think Bruce doesn't care about innocents dying every time one of his rogues escapes, I don't think you understand the character all that much. He imposed limits upon himself because he doesn't trust himself to not fall over the edge if he kills the Joker, and then starts justifying an even higher body count. That doesn't mean that he doesn't get frustrated with the situations of the rogues escaping and knocking people off. Why the hell hasn't the Joker gotten the death sentence yet? Why hasn't Gordon taken the opportunity to shoot him in numerous justifiable situations? Why is it all his responsibility?
    It isn’t. It isn’t his responsibility at all. Which makes his crusade all the more baffling. The entire premise of superheroes is that the system is too corrupt and ineffective so certain people are justified in using their skill, abilities and resources to take care of business themselves.
    And yet time and time again, we see superheroes leaving the criminals in the hands of authorities they know to be ineffective at handling such monsters. What exactly is the point of superheroes if they’re just going to leave the punishment of criminals to a system they know is not going to stop them? The police and the courts not killing the Joker is moot. We know they’re incompetent and corrupt dopes who couldn’t find their own asses with a flashlight and a map. Bruce is supposed to not be and yet he’s no more effective at cleaning up the city than they are.


    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Superman is more special than other capes due to his longevity. We wouldn't have the genre as we know it without him.
    Out of universe, I’ll agree. In universe, he’s no more special than any other cape, either in terms of power or morality, but I feel this might be a topic for another thread. Sorry I brought it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think the fact that Gotham had such a corrupt justice system kind of deterred him. Gotham already had some honest cops, and they were clearly overwhelmed and not getting the job done without some sort of outside help to give things a jump start like Batman. Harvey Dent was an idealistic hero and look at him, he went nuts. And I can't think of many other ways to violate the law that are more questionable than murdering people, and we know he doesn't rape, pillage and frame his enemies with reckless abandon.
    I’d say torture and privacy violation are on par with murder, if not worse. Especially as the former two are typically seen as less sympathetic from a legal and moral standpoint.
    And if the Gotham legal system is such a hindrance, again, why does he bother?

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Should Dick, Babs, Kate, Tim, Steph and the rest all get over themselves and put on badges too.
    Honestly, yes. And I’d say the same of any cape too.
    Tbh, I wouldn’t be on the writers’ case about this nearly as much if they didn’t keep milking these contrivances for cheap drama. If you’re not going to have Bruce kill the Joker after his most recent killing spree, don’t have it be the main point of debate in your book. If you’re not going to resolve the corruption in Gotham, don’t have your characters repeatedly point it out and the do nothing about it. At best, this just makes superheroes look like useless masochists.

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Really this is more of a reason for him to quit being Batman than anything else.
    How so?

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancj View Post
    How so?
    It shows he clearly has some mental issues he needs to sort through. Really, he could easily cause a death while he's on the job especially given how brutal he is and I doubt he's be able to deal with a criminal dying on the way to the ER because of him.

  6. #36
    Spectacular Member Fearless Heart's Avatar
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  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutant God View Post
    My guess is that either Gotham's Government or the Court of Owls (or maybe both) have guys like Joker to keep around so that all the police force and vigilantes have their attention on them meanwhile the white collar criminals and government agencies can do what their want .



    Which leads to Bruce Wayne's School for Gifted Orphans and Psychopaths lol.
    Resulting in Bruce Wayne getting the key to the city, heralded as a patron of Gotham and a new batch of gifted Psychopaths for Batman to fight.

  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    To which I must respond, exactly how does Batman's activities not corrupt the system further?
    How exactly is it making things worse? Especially since there are way more honest cops on the force after he arrives on the scene in Gotham, and the money he donates to various charities and the jobs he provides for the lower class and even reformed criminals help eliminate poverty and the need for crime, and being Batman provides a symbol of hope for the people of Gotham and allows them to not be afraid anymore. Rise in super crime aside, I'm not seeing how Gotham is worse after the arrival of Batman than it was before. It has different problems, but not the same ones.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Most of the time, he tracks down criminals after the fact, and the best he can do is deliver them to the authorities.
    Well he can't arrest them for crimes they didn't commit. That's kind of fascist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The Nolan films soundly demonstrated that all his theatrics mean nothing against people who are actually willing to call his bluff. All in all, his methodology makes no sense, causing more harm than help in the long run.
    And then after Maroni called his bluff, he dropped him. Reputation restored.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That’s not even getting into continuities where his existence actually directly leads to the rise of costumed villains like the Joker.
    He does no such thing for any of those costumed villains. They have agency in their own decisions. At most he inspired them to be more theatrical, but he didn't hold a gun to their heads and force them to become monsters. The B:TAS episode "Trial" called out that bullshit so thoroughly that I'm surprised it's even still brought up. Jervis Tetch still would have been a perverted creep even if he didn't dress up like a Lewis Carroll creation for example. Most of them adopt these garish guises in a way that's incidental to Batman, and many even before they meet him for the first time.

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    It shows he clearly has some mental issues he needs to sort through. Really, he could easily cause a death while he's on the job especially given how brutal he is and I doubt he's be able to deal with a criminal dying on the way to the ER because of him.
    Ah - well yeah - he and all other vigilantes would be mentally unstable in the real world. Within the comic world though I think it works for Bats to have a line he has a mental block about crossing.

  10. #40
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    Then there would no longer be villains, the franchise would tank.

  11. #41
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    Batman just catches the criminals. It isn't his job to kill them. The real question should be why does the state that Gotham City is in have no death penalty? Is there anyone left that thinks the Joker can be rehabilitated?
    Even if Gotham had the death penalty, Joker, for example, couldn't receive it by achieving successful insanity defenses (whether the court found correctly or not is a separate discussion). So, there are two legal barriers keeping many rogues from the chair, no death penalty and a pro-defendant legal framework for insanity defenses.
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 05-05-2017 at 08:04 AM.
    Thank you AMericA for votinG for chAnge.

  12. #42
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Then there would no longer be villains, the franchise would tank.
    Succinctly and well put.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBatmanFan05 View Post
    Even if Gotham had the death penalty, Joker, for example, couldn't receive it by achieving successful insanity defenses (whether the court found correctly or not is a separate discussion). So, there are two legal barriers keeping many rogues from the chair, no death penalty and a pro-defendant legal framework for insanity defenses.
    That's not the real problem. The real problem is: why hasn't some cop shot the freaking Joker and killed him? It's the one weak spot of Soft Targets - Maggie unloads a full clip into the Joker, but doesn't kill him. It stretches the out of universe demand for the Joker to implausible breaking point that a cop hasn't just killed him. I cannot image an IA board in the world that wouldn't pat a cop that killed the Joker on the back.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  13. #43
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    That's not the real problem. The real problem is: why hasn't some cop shot the freaking Joker and killed him? It's the one weak spot of Soft Targets - Maggie unloads a full clip into the Joker, but doesn't kill him. It stretches the out of universe demand for the Joker to implausible breaking point that a cop hasn't just killed him. I cannot image an IA board in the world that wouldn't pat a cop that killed the Joker on the back.
    He's survived exploding buildings, falling into smokestacks, falling off of cliffs, falling from absurd heights, and other scenario's where it's implausible he could have possibly survived.

    I can believe the likelihood that the GCPD have shot the Joker multiple times and he's still found a way to survive. It's just what he does. Maybe that's the joke ?

  14. #44
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    He's survived exploding buildings, falling into smokestacks, falling off of cliffs, falling from absurd heights, and other scenario's where it's implausible he could have possibly survived.

    I can believe the likelihood that the GCPD have shot the Joker multiple times and he's still found a way to survive. It's just what he does. Maybe that's the joke ?
    I'm not laughing.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
    "All that is not eternal is eternally out of date." C. S. Lewis, The Four Loves
    "There's room in our line of work for hope, too." Stephanie Brown
    Stephanie Brown Wiki, My Batman Universe Reviews, Stephanie Brown Discord

  15. #45
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I'm not laughing.
    Well, it's certainly not "Ha Ha" funny...

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