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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    That's not the real problem. The real problem is: why hasn't some cop shot the freaking Joker and killed him?
    Too busy shooting at unarmed young black men?

  2. #47
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, it's certainly not "Ha Ha" funny...
    Yeah. I have a very limited sense of humor anyway, and very little of it is macabre, so I find the Joker incredibly off putting, especially since he's killed or hurt of a lot of characters I like a lot. I understand that he's popular, but I've never liked him.
    "We're the same thing, you and I. We're both lies that eventually became the truth." Lara Notsil, Star Wars: X-Wing: Solo Command, Aaron Allston
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  3. #48
    Amazing Member Adam Allen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    To which I must respond, exactly how does Batman's activities not corrupt the system further?
    It isnít. It isnít his responsibility at all. Which makes his crusade all the more baffling. The entire premise of superheroes is that the system is too corrupt and ineffective so certain people are justified in using their skill, abilities and resources to take care of business themselves.
    That's not the premise of superheroes. It's that all that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Or, with great power comes great responsibility. If you had the powers of Superman and never used them to help anybody ... well, you would at least not be a very admirable person. I suppose you could say it's not your job, and that would be true, but still.

    Batman's lack of super powers makes it easier to find a way to have him challenged or put in real danger, but it also obscures that a key aspect of the superhero genre is super powers, or abilities beyond what any regular person could do.

    Why don't you use your special abilities or powers to kill people?

    Yeah, you really shouldn't need to ask that question.

  4. #49
    Spectacular Member btmarine23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Yeah. I have a very limited sense of humor anyway, and very little of it is macabre, so I find the Joker incredibly off putting, especially since he's killed or hurt of a lot of characters I like a lot. I understand that he's popular, but I've never liked him.
    I feel the exact same way.

  5. #50
    Spectacular Member Fearless Heart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Yeah. I have a very limited sense of humor anyway, and very little of it is macabre, so I find the Joker incredibly off putting, especially since he's killed or hurt of a lot of characters I like a lot. I understand that he's popular, but I've never liked him.
    I am the same way. It's why I never aligned with the whole ideology of Batman only exists because of the Joker or Batman is only a good character because of the Joker. I don't like the Joker and I love Batman!

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    How exactly is it making things worse? Especially since there are way more honest cops on the force after he arrives on the scene in Gotham, and the money he donates to various charities and the jobs he provides for the lower class and even reformed criminals help eliminate poverty and the need for crime, and being Batman provides a symbol of hope for the people of Gotham and allows them to not be afraid anymore. Rise in super crime aside, I'm not seeing how Gotham is worse after the arrival of Batman than it was before. It has different problems, but not the same ones.
    Heís created an environment where vigilantism is essentially accepted over the rule of law and the police rely on people in masks to solve crimes. Corruption and organized crime still remain just now people also have to deal with super crime.




    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Well he can't arrest them for crimes they didn't commit. That's kind of fascist.
    As opposed to virtually everything else superheroes do?



    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    And then after Maroni called his bluff, he dropped him. Reputation restored.
    Dropping Maroni achieved nothing. Not only did the guy not give him the information he needed (partly because he didnít have it) but it was clear that criminals were a lot more afraid of the Joker than they were of Batman. In fact, one way to interpret Bruce taking the fall for Harveyís crimes at the end of the Dark Knight was because he needed criminals to be afraid of him again.



    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    He does no such thing for any of those costumed villains. They have agency in their own decisions. At most he inspired them to be more theatrical, but he didn't hold a gun to their heads and force them to become monsters. The B:TAS episode "Trial" called out that bullshit so thoroughly that I'm surprised it's even still brought up. Jervis Tetch still would have been a perverted creep even if he didn't dress up like a Lewis Carroll creation for example. Most of them adopt these garish guises in a way that's incidental to Batman, and many even before they meet him for the first time.
    B:TAS used the origin of Bruce knocking the Joker into a vat of chemicals.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Allen View Post
    That's not the premise of superheroes. It's that all that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Or, with great power comes great responsibility. If you had the powers of Superman and never used them to help anybody ... well, you would at least not be a very admirable person. I suppose you could say it's not your job, and that would be true, but still.
    This is all a nicer way of what I said the superhero genre is about. Even then, given what a hell hole superhero universes are, it can be said the heroes either fail at this, or worse, donít want to actually help given how often they defend villains from righteous retribution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Allen View Post
    Batman's lack of super powers makes it easier to find a way to have him challenged or put in real danger, but it also obscures that a key aspect of the superhero genre is super powers, or abilities beyond what any regular person could do.
    The last one pretty much applies to Batman too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Allen View Post
    Why don't you use your special abilities or powers to kill people?


    Yeah, you really shouldn't need to ask that question.
    We wouldnít need to if the writers would stop bringing it up.

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    In fact, one way to interpret Bruce taking the fall for Harvey’s crimes at the end of the Dark Knight was because he needed criminals to be afraid of him again.
    I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion. Bruce explicitly took the blame for Two Face's actions to preserve Harvey's public image so that he could remain a beacon of hope and a symbol of change for Gotham. Why would he need to build up his "street cred" if he had every intention of retiring?

    However, I do agree that on the whole Batman's existance has played a role in the development of supervillains in Gotham.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  9. #54
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    He should just scream Martha, criminals will automatically flee in terror. MARTHA.

  10. #55
    Incredible Member Dr. Skeleton's Avatar
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    Commissioner Gordon pretty much let it be known to Batman that if he ever kills, even if it's the Joker, that he would see him as a criminal and would bring him to justice.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightwingIvI View Post
    I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion. Bruce explicitly took the blame for Two Face's actions to preserve Harvey's public image so that he could remain a beacon of hope and a symbol of change for Gotham. Why would he need to build up his "street cred" if he had every intention of retiring?

    However, I do agree that on the whole Batman's existance has played a role in the development of supervillains in Gotham.
    For starters, the film didn't end with him retiring just on the run.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    He should just scream Martha, criminals will automatically flee in terror. MARTHA.
    Did you actually have anything to contribute or did you just come to take another jab at BvS?

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    For starters, the film didn't end with him retiring just on the run.
    Within the context of Dark Knight Rises, it's clear he pretty much immediately retired. His motivation was not to make Batman a symbol of fear, but to make Harvey a beacon of hope. Harvey's image is used to pass progressive anti-crime legislation that benefitted Gotham City more than Batman could.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  14. #59
    Spectacular Member seusilva's Avatar
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    During Kingdom Come Magog kills the Joker - and is not considered guilty for this (but after that, a immense mess begins). I think if Batman kills somebody probably Gotham will found him guilty - the jury will be influenced by the Owls, Penguin, the mobs, Harvey Dent...

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Did you actually have anything to contribute or did you just come to take another jab at BvS?
    Contribute to what? this debate is settled. You're just strawmanning as usual. You just want to kill so thay he doesn't have any authority over some c lister you like .

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