A New Generation of Superman Fan

[Venomous Mask]

It's really not a big deal at all. I admit when I first saw Man of Steel I was a bit turned off by it but looking back, he's done it so many times. But the fact he did this is more than enough for me.

I'm sure if it's been mentioned in other Superman comics, but in Superman vs. Aliens, it was shown that Superman felt terrible about this, leading him to go out of his way not to kill xenomorphs.

[Ascended]

I'm sure if it's been mentioned in other Superman comics, but in Superman vs. Aliens, it was shown that Superman felt terrible about this, leading him to go out of his way not to kill xenomorphs.

I dont recall Superman v Aliens ever being directly mentioned in the comics. But that's typical of DC; you never saw Batman talk about meeting Spawn either (though Spawn did use that crossover going forward). Those crossovers sort of happen in a pocket reality; its the "real" DC canon, but the events never have any impact after the fact and if they get mentioned at all, its in such a vague, sly way only those who read the crossover would catch it.

But in any case yeah, Clark really did not handle killing the Zoners very well. But I think a lot of people tend to forget that his mental breakdown and Exile was brought on by more than just the execution; the Eradicator did a number on Clark's mind with that whole Kryptonian Man thing, and I wanna say that Brainiac got into his head too? So it wasnt *just* the killing that put him over the edge.

But your example here is exactly why I dont like Superman having a steadfast no-kill rule. Xenomorphs are rabid animals and a blight upon the universe, and unless you're crazy lucky, just one arriving on your planet is basically an extinction event. If Clark is willing to kill robots, monsters, parademons, and rogue gods, he should be willing to kill friggin xenomorphs!

[_Feely_]

I know this is going back a bit, but never until I read other people saying it on the likes of these forums did I ever think that Supes killed Zod and Co in STM:II.

I always had just read the scene as Zod falling into a Phantom Zone portal of some-such. I went for near three decades without the thought of Super-Genocide once crossing my mind.

Takes all sorts, eh?

[Clark_Kent]

I dont recall Superman v Aliens ever being directly mentioned in the comics. But that's typical of DC; you never saw Batman talk about meeting Spawn either (though Spawn did use that crossover going forward). Those crossovers sort of happen in a pocket reality; its the "real" DC canon, but the events never have any impact after the fact and if they get mentioned at all, its in such a vague, sly way only those who read the crossover would catch it.

But in any case yeah, Clark really did not handle killing the Zoners very well. But I think a lot of people tend to forget that his mental breakdown and Exile was brought on by more than just the execution; the Eradicator did a number on Clark's mind with that whole Kryptonian Man thing, and I wanna say that Brainiac got into his head too? So it wasnt *just* the killing that put him over the edge.

But your example here is exactly why I dont like Superman having a steadfast no-kill rule. Xenomorphs are rabid animals and a blight upon the universe, and unless you're crazy lucky, just one arriving on your planet is basically an extinction event. If Clark is willing to kill robots, monsters, parademons, and rogue gods, he should be willing to kill friggin xenomorphs!

Superman vs Aliens actually was canon to Superman in the triangle era...I believe it was during "Power Struggle", right after the wedding. The Legion show up to help Superman get his powers back, but they need a ship to fly close to the sun; Superman goes to Lexcorp and borrows a spaceplane, specifically saying he had borrowed one just like it from Contessa & flown it a short while earlier to investigate a distress call in space...the text had an asterik next to it, and the editors note said "As Seen in the Now-Classic Superman vs Aliens!" or something like that. Putting it right into Superman's continuity at the time.

And that, ladies and gents, is your useless comic trivia for the day! lol

For what it's worth, I believe an issue of Batman even referenced one of the crossovers with the Punisher...I don't recall if he mentions the Punisher specifically, or if it was Jigsaw, but it's in there. A Superman / Fantastic Four crossover was made canon as well, because Cyborg Superman was left in a certain state at the end of that book, and the next time we ever see him in a Superman title he was still in that same exact state. Occasionally the crossovers become part of the continuity, so I pretty much accept them all as part of a characters history.

Also, you are right about Brainiac taking advantage of Clark's mind prior to Exile, and that was a contributing factor. The Eradicator, though, didn't appear until the mid-late part of Exile when the Cleric saved Clark from Mongul.

[Adekis]

Kinda - but I'd say that some of what they show of Superman really paint a more complete picture of him and show him in a better light because of it. And I say that as someone who has a very strong dislike of BvS and Superman in it.

I'll cop to that. Adding more Clark was definitely the UC's best contribution.

Oh, I didn't mean to start into which one counts - the point I was going for (overall, anyway) was that we shouldn't dismiss any of them, so I very much agree on that. As for indications for STM:II, while the evidence is limited and not exactly direct, the tone and relationship with physics/etc of the films as a whole is loose enough that death can't be assumed at all, imo - in fact, the opposite would be more accurate (again, imo). Humans are pretty resilient in the Donnerverse, especially in lighter and "fun" moments in the films (as I'd said when talking about them falling from skyscrapers and surviving orbit exit/entry and space itself). Not to mention, some here said that Zod/Ursa/Non "screamed until it faded out" or something like that.. but no, - the echo Non's yell does fades, but the other two's yells stop almost as soon as they fall through the "fog" and Non's direct yell stops not long after as well. So who knows how "bottomless" that hole is? (this is where I hear Archer: "Phrasing!")

See, I'm not willing to just point to a couple of goofy moments and say "cartoon physics always apply". Donner's buzzword for Superman was "verisimilitude", or the appearance of being real, and I at least want to accept that much at face value. If Lester drops in a cartoon physics moment, I'm not willing to extrapolate it beyond that singular moment. The detail about the fog and how long they scream is interesting, but I really don't there's a clear intent that they're meant to survive. Sometimes things that happen off screen were obviously intended to have happened a certain way. For example, Clark stumbles through the arctic back to the fortress after foolishly giving up his powers, he finds a crystal and we later see Superman in the city. Clearly, he got his powers back. There's no build-up or payoff to the pit-which-may-or-may-not-be-bottomless. They fall through the fog and we never see them again. I think it's pretty clear that in that cut the audience is meant to infer that they died. Obviously that's not the case for the other cut where we later see them getting carted to jail. Does he drop them through the fog in that cut too? I ask 'cause I've never seen it, hehe...

Yeah, this is another example of what I was talking about above - the movie plays fast and loose with physics and reality. In the Donnerverse, his going back (it seems) overwrites where he was; he goes back to a slightly earlier time, he saves Lois, and then (mostly off-camera, admittedly) does more of the saving he couldn't do before. As much as it doesn't make sense to us, that's how things work in the Donnerverse - not saying it's pretty and not saying it isn't sometimes cringeworthy, but there it is, lol.

This one I really can't buy, much much moreso than the Zod thing. If Superman's time travel re-writes his location and he just manages to save Lois before the Earthquake hits her, then what's stopping her from driving off and getting hit by the Earthquake again? You can't just explain away plot-holes by saying something happened off-screen, not unless something that happens on-screen seems to imply that- which nothing in Superman does, since he just flies cheerily into space and waves at the camera. If he had to go do more rescues in the same area, he shouldn't go all the way into space, that wouldn't make sense. I suppose you could argue that he flew up to catch the missile when he flew into space at the end, but then why did Lois's car break down before the missile hit during "round 2" when it only broke down during the Earthquake the first time? I think we're just meant to go "yay, Superman solved the problem with time travel" when all that really means is that he entered god-mode and erased the missile from existence.

I have no idea on this next thing, but I've come to see his time travel as him going back - the Earth "turning backward"/etc is just a visual effect of what he'd see as he himself goes back, if that makes any sense.

Yeah, this one I'll buy I suppose. -shrug- The on-screen evidence that he's not literally turning the planet backwards is that there isn't catastrophic havoc wreaked on the world!

Oh, I totally get what you mean. And you're right, it is a lot less than what Reeve's Superman does - I was just saying that, on a technical level, while one feels less intrusive, they both have the same effect: anybody can say "why didn't he just go back and do 'x'?".. that kinda thing.

I gotcha, haha! It's just that that was never one of my complaints with Donner's time travel, that's all- my complaint was always that Donner time travel isn't intrusive enough.

Absolutely! I'm actually looking forward to whenever we eventually get a Superman with actual Super-intelligence in non-comics mediums. We get little drips and drabs of it, but as I get older.. Stupidman really isn't my thing - frustrates me to no end.

Same! We'll get there someday, man. Someday. Don't quit believing!

[JAK]

See, I'm not willing to just point to a couple of goofy moments and say "cartoon physics always apply". Donner's buzzword for Superman was "verisimilitude", or the appearance of being real, and I at least want to accept that much at face value. If Lester drops in a cartoon physics moment, I'm not willing to extrapolate it beyond that singular moment. The detail about the fog and how long they scream is interesting, but I really don't there's a clear intent that they're meant to survive. Sometimes things that happen off screen were obviously intended to have happened a certain way. For example, Clark stumbles through the arctic back to the fortress after foolishly giving up his powers, he finds a crystal and we later see Superman in the city. Clearly, he got his powers back. There's no build-up or payoff to the pit-which-may-or-may-not-be-bottomless. They fall through the fog and we never see them again. I think it's pretty clear that in that cut the audience is meant to infer that they died. Obviously that's not the case for the other cut where we later see them getting carted to jail. Does he drop them through the fog in that cut too? I ask 'cause I've never seen it, hehe...

My take on it is that what constitutes verisimilitude for 1979 is different than how we'd apply it today. Cartoon physics to various degrees are all over the place in those movies, except for specific parts where it's in the plot to be more serious - and then there are usually specific kinds of musical cues for it. 1979 was verisimilitude vs the 1966 Batman - today that scale has shifted to be much more specific and "realistic".

And yes, they fall through the fog in the other cuts, too. Personally, I think they just shot all of it and later didn't think they'd need to show them getting hauled away and cut it for time or to not "break up the moment" or whatever. It was clearly in the shooting script, so I think it's hard to make a case for "they meant this" when that's not how it was being shot.

This one I really can't buy, much much moreso than the Zod thing. If Superman's time travel re-writes his location and he just manages to save Lois before the Earthquake hits her, then what's stopping her from driving off and getting hit by the Earthquake again? You can't just explain away plot-holes by saying something happened off-screen, not unless something that happens on-screen seems to imply that- which nothing in Superman does, since he just flies cheerily into space and waves at the camera. If he had to go do more rescues in the same area, he shouldn't go all the way into space, that wouldn't make sense. I suppose you could argue that he flew up to catch the missile when he flew into space at the end, but then why did Lois's car break down before the missile hit during "round 2" when it only broke down during the Earthquake the first time? I think we're just meant to go "yay, Superman solved the problem with time travel" when all that really means is that he entered god-mode and erased the missile from existence.

Good points - I'm thinking I must have been on quite a bit of Ny-Quill when I made this point (I'd been sick for 3 weeks, finally better now) lol... Well, the movie says that the Earthquake still happened at least in part - Jimmy mentions it. But there's no giant crack in the road behind Lois, so that obviously was fixed. Certainly plot holes abound, and it does amount to "God Mode" on Superman's part - but I'd point to that as an example of verisimilitude of 1979 being different than today. Today, that would be a complete break of the concept. Back then, not so much.

What I should have said was that these show that there's little consistency in how things are "supposed to work" even from the first movie, and that it's another reason to cast doubt on putting "real life physics" on a scene where something isn't specifically shown.

Yeah, this one I'll buy I suppose. -shrug- The on-screen evidence that he's not literally turning the planet backwards is that there isn't catastrophic havoc wreaked on the world!

LOL, pretty much! Trust me, I didn't see it this way at first, either - but I saw some people mentioning it (in general, not the specifics) and on repeated viewings it made more and more sense.

I gotcha, haha! It's just that that was never one of my complaints with Donner's time travel, that's all- my complaint was always that Donner time travel isn't intrusive enough.

Oh, it's all good - some of that wasn't so much for you, but for those that I see praising DCEU and harping on STM's time travel. Just seems odd to me.

Same! We'll get there someday, man. Someday. Don't quit believing!

Definitely - and if I get too frustrated about it, I'll make the dang thing, myself. lol

[Ascended]

Superman vs Aliens actually was canon to Superman in the triangle era...I believe it was during "Power Struggle", right after the wedding. The Legion show up to help Superman get his powers back, but they need a ship to fly close to the sun; Superman goes to Lexcorp and borrows a spaceplane, specifically saying he had borrowed one just like it from Contessa & flown it a short while earlier to investigate a distress call in space...the text had an asterik next to it, and the editors note said "As Seen in the Now-Classic Superman vs Aliens!" or something like that. Putting it right into Superman's continuity at the time.

And that, ladies and gents, is your useless comic trivia for the day! lol

For what it's worth, I believe an issue of Batman even referenced one of the crossovers with the Punisher...I don't recall if he mentions the Punisher specifically, or if it was Jigsaw, but it's in there. A Superman / Fantastic Four crossover was made canon as well, because Cyborg Superman was left in a certain state at the end of that book, and the next time we ever see him in a Superman title he was still in that same exact state. Occasionally the crossovers become part of the continuity, so I pretty much accept them all as part of a characters history.

Also, you are right about Brainiac taking advantage of Clark's mind prior to Exile, and that was a contributing factor. The Eradicator, though, didn't appear until the mid-late part of Exile when the Cleric saved Clark from Mongul.

Yknow what, now you mention it, that scene connecting into Aliens does seem familiar. I had no idea about the Bat-Punisher thing (wasn't reading much Batman at the time) though.

Hell, I just got schooled!