X-Men: Gold #3 SPOILERS

[Angrel-San]

I liked this.

Definitely a good start for Kitty. She is looking promising as a leader.

[DDM]

Emma engaged in New X-Men the issue before that.

Which was a conflict of a couple minutes at most, only several panels.

You're reading something that isn't there, Emma goes on to say she has all of that in abundance. Rachel was using more power Emma barely broke a sweat. That doesn't mean Rachel has more power as Emma wasn't even pushed.

Emma inverted Rachel's attacks. It wasn't even an issue of power, as Emma literally lectured Rachel on. And yes it's an inference on what Emma didn't say as much as what she did. But given the characters and the writer involved, and his other writing on Rachel at the time specifically, I would say it's the correct reading. Rachel's power is "off the charts" but that didn't matter as Emma's guile and skill won the day. Despite power Rachel's not her equal here. That was a theme with Rachel going back to the Phoenix too, where Necrom scolded her as handling the force like a clumsy child and with just a fraction of it he was dwarfing her attacks.

Rachel states that her power leevels were back to baseline in Excalibur after willing it dormant. Emma had half the force no problem in AvX for ages. Yes her words were I'm not strong enough the same words that Celeste used. And Emma tells her no she is she's not emotionally cold. This is followed up in endsong. Frost is stronger then 3 Cuckoo's power wise.

Rachel states that yes, but it's inconsistent with ALL other continuity. That's why there's an issue, you have one standard being set here by Davis but a much higher standard consistently used by Claremont, Weinberg, Brubaker, Yost, Carey, Aaron, Gage, Bunn, Guggenheim, etc. Rachel's claiming she can't do things like telekinetically rearrange clothing, lift herself or communicate long distance which she was doing as a teen pre-Phoenix even. How do you reconcile that?

And Emma had tons of problems managing the Phoenix, that and her loosening hold only accelerating as other hosts dropped off and she was forced to bear a greater portion of power in AVX. She couldn't even cope with the full force for more than minutes in Endsong. That is a good point to contrast with Rachel, who served as full avatar for years. One has hard limits quickly burned through, the other limitless potential.

She's crouched on the floor. The panel is dynamic she was the first to get up.

The panel is dynamic but she never went down fully. It's never shown, she's never shown screaming in pain or losing her focus on Emma. You accuse me of reading something that isn't there but that's exactly what you're doing here. Emma didn't floor Rachel, in fact Rachel was the only one she didn't floor here.

Frost also blocked sinister exodus and lady m from.a sofa halfway across the world in the issue earlier according to Mike Carey

Emma's done incredibly well against more powerful telepaths, she has a solid track record punching well above her weight with characters like Xavier, Jean, Legion, Sinister, Exodus, Rachel, etc. Nothing new here really.

[R0d]

I liked the first issue but the last two were meh. I'll read the next arc mainly because it has Gambit as a guest star but if it doesn't pick up by then I'll drop it.

[Tofali]

So what's the verdict on Guggenheim's writing?

[CoCoBandz]

So what's the verdict on Guggenheim's writing?

Predictable/Meh

[Mia]

So what's the verdict on Guggenheim's writing?

Depends on your own reading tastes.

I like him a lot (although the end of XMG#3 seemed forced). If you like complex and stories with depth and fleshed out characters, you'll like it. But if you like simplistic John Grisham, Matt Fraction type stories, and enjoy pop corn shows like the Flash, Beverly Hills 90210 or movies like Star Wars Rogue One then it's not for you.

[Purplevit]

I don`t agree tht Gold so far has depth and fleshed out characters in it.
It is not bad but definetely no real depth.

But still I enjoyed it much much more then Extraordinary.

[dimo1]

If you like complex and stories with depth and fleshed out characters, you'll like it.

You must have read a completely different story then.
Where is it complex and, apart from Kitty acting a bit out of character shouting orders, are the fleshed out characters?

Sorry, but the first three issues very very simplistic and very predictable.

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

You must have read a completely different story then.
Where is it complex and, apart from Kitty acting a bit out of character shouting orders, are the fleshed out characters?

Sorry, but the first three issues very very simplistic and very predictable.

You've pretty much summed up the entire first three issues in a few words. Waste of money.

[rutog98]

Okay, this is regarding Storm's mental defenses.

Storm's willpower and mental defenses were things that developed over a period of years. They developed as she endured and overcame many personal trials and tribulations. This is not something that was just thrown onto her character haphazardly. She went from not being able to resist any psi attacks at all (this is how she started out) to having the strongest will of all. No single telepath could defeat her when written at her best.

One can say as Storm's journeyed from street urchin (she was being hounded by Shadow King at this time to boot. Can you imagine being a 7 year old child and being targeted by a monster like that?), to "Goddess of the Plains", to X-Man, to becoming leader of the X-Men, to having her bond with the Earth fractured, through the Punk Storm era that resulted from this bond being fractured plus the heavy emotional sacrifices she was forced to make in leading the X-Men (stabbing Callisto through the heart, etc...things she vowed she would never do, but was forced to do as leader of the X-Men to ensure the survival of her team/surrogate family...this placed a VERY heavy burden on her soul), losing her powers, "Life/Dearth", through her tumultuous relationship with Forge, being reduced to a child by Nanny, overcoming the amnesia that resulted from her being regressed to a child (not to mention being hunted by a monster like Shadow King and his hounds while in this child state), etc...

Storm endured numerous seemingly insurmountable crucibles of fire and each time she rose to meet the challenge coming out emtionally stronger than ever. The development of her willpower is a reflection of this character growth. To deny Storm her willpower, to simply write it out of the character, is to devalue all the rich character development that came before that gave birth to her strong sense of self and indomitable will to begin with.

[rutog98]

@Everyone keeping up with this thread, I am going to elaborate with canon what I just mentioned in my last post.

Going back to how Storm's character started out, I would again like to point out she was no match for psychic attacks at first. Both Mesmero and Emma Frost (in the Dark Phoenix Saga) proved this.

Later, when Scott left the team and Storm became leader of the X-Men, she was at first very insecure about her ability to lead. She became more confident and everything over time. When she later faced Emma Frost again in Uncanny 151 and 152, she was at first frightened of the White Queen as a result to how badly Emma beat her in the Dark Phoenix Saga. Worse, Emma did not just beat Storm, she subjected Storm to extended periods of mental torture ripping pathways through her mind and learning her way around Storm's psyche as well as she knew her own mind. Uncanny 151 highlights all of this from the Dark Phoenix Saga and strongly emphasized Storm's fear of Emma. In this round against Emma, the White Queen uses a device she concocted to swap her mind with Storm's thus they essentially body swap. At the climax of the story, after Storm successfully uses the device to swap their bodies back, Emma tries to use the intimate knowledge she learned about Storm's psyche to mindblast her to death boasting that Storm could not resist her mental powers. Storm admitted that this was true at one time, but was no longer the case (so, Storm has grown since the Dark Phoenix Saga) as she shrugs off Emma's mind attack and fries her with a bolt of lightning. Emma's mental powers were completely useless against Ororo.

Later on, Storm leaves Earth for a couple of months to traverse the galaxy in a battle against the Brood. Never having been away from the Earth for so long, when she comes back, her bond with the life force of the Earth is fractured and it will take time before she gets reaclimated to the Earth (fortunately, over time, Storm has been able to bond with the life force of her environment be it Earth, another planet, anywhere in space, another dimension, etc in a much shorter length of time). What this meant was she could no longer feel the life essence within living plants and creatures (Storm has a unity with life itself as she draws both spiritual and material sustenance from the life force of heavenly bodies be it stars or planets..she can detect the life force in plants, living creatures, stars and planets). More, the fine tune control she had over her powers was diminished and she lost some of her immunity to the weather (this immunity is tied into her oneness with the world around her). This caused GREAT emotional turmoil for her as it struck her to the very core of who she largely is.

On top of this, Storm was worshipped as a Goddess of Life and she viewed herself as a caretaker of all living things, hence, she vowed never to take a life. That said, this self-identity she held herself to became a defining trait of who she is. When she was forced to fight Callisto to the death in the Morlock tunnels, it struck her to her very core later on. Uncanny issue 171 illustrates very well the inner struggles going on within Storm's being as she struggles to reconcile being the "Goddess of Life" to who she has been forced to become as leader of the X-Men. This resulted in her developing a very strong resentment for Xavier. In subsequent stories, Logan would think to himself of the enormous personal sacrifices Storm has made both emotionally and spirtually to be the leader the X-Men needed in order to ensure their survival.

All of the above overwhelmed her and it gave way to her becoming "Punk Storm".

Afterwards, she lost her powers to Forge and didn't even know he was responsible for the weapon that stripped her of her goddess-level powers. After falling in love with him, she discovered the truth about the creation of the device. She ended up going back to Africa and contemplated suicide. She had lost the will to live. This all happened in Life/Death. At the climatic end of this story, she finally came to terms with losing her powers and delivered her legendary speech while standing atop of a hill, "Though my feet shall never leave the ground, in my soul, where it truly matters, I soar higher than the stars." She had just witnessed the village elder will himself to death on the hilltop and she refused to choose the same fate for herself. So, in this personal journey/tribulation, she went from wanting to commit suicide to finding the will to live and finding peace with the loss of her powers.

Again, I want to emphasize her sense of self. She questioned this heavily during the Brood Saga and subsequent stories as she was evolving into a different person from the "Goddess of Life" she had been. She lost her footing and self-identity not knowing who she was. However, as you can see, in Life/Death, she came through the whole ordeal that led to that moment with a much stronger sense of self than at any other point in her life. This will play a HUGE role in her willpower in future stories. Keep reading...

In the 1985 Annual, Mojo used his sorcery to enslave the minds of the X-Men. Storm's will was the strongest of them all (Magneto was included in this...remember, in Uncanny 150, Magneto's will was the strongest of all which would include Ororo's. Now, she has grown to surpass him because of all she has had to endure and overcome). Storm was the first X-Man to break Mojo's hold over her. What had happened was her strong sense of self was in disharmony with the world around her. She felt a wrongness deep within her being. This strong sense of self she had developed clued her to the reality that her mind had been overtaken by an outside force. Upon realizing that, her characteristic indomitable will came into play and she was able to throw off Mojo's influence. Taking strength from Storm's show of willpower, the other X-Men, inspired by Ororo indomitable will, then followed suit. Notice, when she was mind-controlled by Mesmero circa Uncanny 112, she could not break free of his hold. Again, character growth.

Later on, we see a similar situation when Storm confronts Shadow King in New Mutants issue 34. In this story, Shadow King not only had his own psi powers, but Karma's power was added to his power as well. Thanks to Magik, SK was able to get the drop on Storm and bring her mind under his control. However, overtime, her sense of self felt a wrongness about what was going on. She sought to overthrough Shadow King/Karma, but lost...barely. SK admitted that Storm nearly beat him and that the fight was very taxing for him. This is with Karma's power added to his own.

After this, we see further growth in Storm's willpower where Nanny stated Storm's mind was too strong to be overtaken, so she makes Storm's willpower less indomitable by regressing her to a child. As a side effect of this act, Storm also gets amnesia. Even in this state, Storm still proved to be too strong for Nanny to control and her will is indomitable enough to beat the Shadow King's mental powers.

Anyway, then we get the Storm vs. Warskrull who had the combined power of Xavier/Psylocke/Oracle...and then in the 2000's, we see Storm's control over electricity develop to where she can fry telepaths out of her mind and even create electrostatic in the area to scramble TP powers. We saw her use this ability to literally fry Bogan/Rachel/Phoenix out of her mind when he tried to telepathically assault her. Bogan by himself is a Xavier-level psi. Added to his powers was the psi-powers of Rachel who had a portion of the Phoenix Force at the time. Even with all of that psi power, Storm's mental defenses crushed him.

The point of this post was to illustrate the correlation between Storm's personal character growth as she went through one crucible after another and how it affected her willpower. Again, she started out not being able to win against any telepath to where no single telepath could overcome her mental defenses. Merely stating it in my previous post was one thing, but I thought it better if I actually went through key moments in canon in detail to back up what I said in case anybody is reading this discussion and is not well versed in Storm's personal backstory/history. I hope I was clear enough...

Again, to deny Storm her defenses against telepathy is to regress her character since these defenses were developed and hard won as a result of character growth through overcoming numerous insurmountable personal tribulations.

[Mia]

You must have read a completely different story then.
Where is it complex and, apart from Kitty acting a bit out of character shouting orders, are the fleshed out characters?

Sorry, but the first three issues very very simplistic and very predictable.

I could cut and paste scenes. Whether that be the interactions between team mates. To the confrontation of the locals.

But I don’t think that would serve a purpose, given your remarks about Kitty, it seems that you’re determined not to like the book period.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

[rutog98]

2) Exodus being a novice is immaterial, he was artifically boosted to his peak abilities (perhaps even past them) by Apocalypse using Celestial tech. That's not PIS, that's just what the character is, incredibly powerful. And he has a track record of throwing around teams, a stronger argument can be made for his fight with Emma being PIS actually given more powerful telepaths like Xavier or Jean couldn't stalemate him previously.

And no, you don't call PIS with Rachel selectively because you're pretty obviously invested in the notion she's weak. You exaggerate any instances you prefer and pathetically try to dismiss all the mounting evidence otherwise. It's sort of amazing how threatened you are by her.

3) Read it again. Rachel only manifests her psi-armor to destroy Emma's psi-restraints. This after Emma starts using psychology in the battle from that point to regress Rachel and turn her into a child. Which Rachel inverts by turning Emma into a crone. Throughout the battle they're trading attacks like this, your "effortless" conjecture is pure bullshit. Nowhere is it implied this was easy for Emma, she didn't even KO Rachel.

4) I'm not sure there's much point in refuting you here, your selective bias only acknowldges what you want and dismisses what you don't. It seemingly "doesn't count" that Rachel contstantly altered people's perceptions to erase her hound marks, she rearranged matter and even dna, she created a black hole, she levatated an entire city, she mindscanned the entire planet, psychically held back all of Attilan, that she could track Cable or Hope when no other telepaths could, she communicated across galaxies, across timelines and even from the end of time. You'll see only want you want and cry PIS when it doesn't suit your agenda.

Your take on the global scan versus the global projection is predictably backwards though. The projection is actually the wave, it's the equivalent to yelling out in a library versus skimming through every book.

5) The static in Storm's brain makes it tougher than usual for telepaths to deal with her. That didn't stop Emma from laying her out on the floor though. Even Dazzler fared better than her really, she's like the definition of a glass canon. As we saw repeatedly when she tried being an Avenger.

2) Here's the thing, in "Bloodties", Exodus was stated to be a weaker psi than Xavier. Whether or not he had tech boosting his powers or whathaveyou, he was weaker than Xavier in that story and has ALWAYS been weaker than Xavier. Added to Xavier's raw power advantage was the fact he was also more skilled and experienced than Exodus. In other words, Exodus posing any kind of a threat to a team consisting of Xavier, Storm, Sersi, etc. is patently PIS. Also, his powers were not enhanced in "Bloodties".

3) Rachel manifests her psi armor and psionic blades to break free from Emma's chains, true, but then she comes at Emma with the blades and psi-armor. Emma steals her blades from her and then makes her armor fall off of her body with great ease. Anybody who looks at those scans can see this. Why are you being so dishonest when the scans clearly show what I am saying?

4) Altering people's perceptions so they don't see your hound marks is not a feat at all. I have seen Emma (and other telepaths) alter the perceptions of large crowds so that they and their team are neither seen nor heard by other people in the vicinity.

She altered the DNA when she had a portion of the PF. Also, this is a telekinetic feat. I am saying that Emma is a superior telepath to Rachel when she doesn't have the Phoenix Force. Keep up. When did she levitate an entire city? Which issue? Something tells me you are either getting something wrong here or she had the Phoenix Force. Also, for Emma to connect Scott to every mutant mind on the planet, she would have had the scan the entire planet first to locate those minds and then connect Scott to every single one of them. So, in her case, a global scan was inherently a part of this feat. Not only that, but she literally connected his mind to all of those other psyches that were located at various points on the globe all at once. This is much more impressive than Rachel's scan. You analogy of Emma's feat being like shouting in a library is false. If you just shout in a library, everybody present hears it. In this case, Emma connected him to every mutant mind on Earth so that only mutants could hear what he had to say. Also, post scans of Rachel holding back all of Attilan. Also, when did she communicate across timelines and galaxies? Post the issue number and scans (if you have them). I have a feeling you are either exaggerating or leaving out details.

5) Regarding Storm and telepathic attacks, I've already dealt with that in my last two posts.

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

I could cut and paste scenes. Whether that be the interactions between team mates. To the confrontation of the locals.

But I don’t think that would serve a purpose, given your remarks about Kitty, it seems that you’re determined not to like the book period.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

The "confrontation with the locals" was just more of Kitty grandstanding and barking orders to normal people. Guggenheim is trying to give her an "Xavier" feel by bridging between human and mutant, but she's coming off more as condescending.

What really pissed me off was that there was an uproar about the "hidden" political messages in the art, but issue 3 was blatantly political with parallels to US politics and not in a good way. It came off as "we're shocked. SHOCKED! by this.....but here is the exact same thing written by a white man, isn't it great?"

[Maestroneto]

The "confrontation with the locals" was just more of Kitty grandstanding and barking orders to normal people. Guggenheim is trying to give her an "Xavier" feel by bridging between human and mutant, but she's coming off more as condescending.

What really pissed me off was that there was an uproar about the "hidden" political messages in the art, but issue 3 was blatantly political with parallels to US politics and not in a good way. It came off as "we're shocked. SHOCKED! by this.....but here is the exact same thing written by a white man, isn't it great?"

It's almost like there's a difference between bigoted political messaging and inclusive political messaging.