George Perez Wonder Woman

[The Dying Detective]

Death Note is a very different story so not relevant.

Don't dismiss it there is alot to learn from it that cna be applied to characters like Steve Trevor.

[The Dying Detective]

Little to no difference from any version except he died.

And you know, I can't help but find it s little odd you've judged this entire run solely on how it treats Steve with no regard for anything else. I mean, you do know he isn't the main character, right?

I am not judging the run alone based on how it treated Steve Trevor I am judging how it treated Steve Trevor. The movie version went about his goals in ways that were interesting like how he gathered his team and his infiltration into the soiree in Germany. You have to learn how to appreciate these essential little details.

[Agent Z]

Don't dismiss it there is alot to learn from it that cna be applied to characters like Steve Trevor.

Like what? If you're thinking about writing a WW character a manga about a high school student who becomes a serial killer after finding a magic note book seems an odd place to start. I don't recall Patty Jenkins citing Death Note in the making of her movie.

[The Dying Detective]

Like what? If you're thinking about writing a WW character a manga about a high school student who becomes a serial killer after finding a magic note book seems an odd place to start.

I am referring to the principles of making strong character by learning from how the characters in Death Note were characterised. Light Yagami and L Lawliet were characters with individual motives and passion and did a lot of interesting things. If writers learned from these essential principles Diana and her supporting cast would be better off.

[SiegePerilous02]

Diane Trevor shows the heroism and sacrifice women outside Themyscira are capable of.

You mean besides the different power sets, view points and personalities. Aphrodite never had much of a role to begin with.

Its possible to do that with Diana meeting women in the outside world. With the bonus of not bringing her back to the island right after she left for a history lesson.

They didn t have much to differentiate them in terms of personality until like Rucka, and even then he mostly focused on Athena. And Aphrodite gave them lives, their mission, their island, GAVE DIANA LIFE, and the Magic Lasso was forged using the girdle she gave the queen. Saying she had no role is blatantly false. Now she got to share it with others and didn't contribute as much beyond giving Diana a "living heart".

[Agent Z]

Its possible to do that with Diana meeting women in the outside world. With the bonus of not bringing her back to the island right after she left for a history lesson.

They didn t have much to differentiate them in terms of personality until like Rucka, and even then he mostly focused on Athena. And Aphrodite gave them lives, their mission, their island, GAVE DIANA LIFE, and the Magic Lasso was forged using the girdle she gave the queen. Saying she had no role is blatantly false. Now she got to share it with others and didn't contribute as much beyond giving Diana a "living heart".

I should point out they also gave the different abilities to Diana. It also strengthened the feminist themes of the book.

[SiegePerilous02]

I should point out they also gave the different abilities to Diana. It also strengthened the feminist themes of the book.

In the Golden age, Diana empowered herself with Amazon training which is arguably even more empowering. The sisterhood theme is present in the Amazons themselves, six goddesses doing the job that one was capable of previously doesn't really add much.

[SiegePerilous02]

Honest question. How much of the dislike for Perez's Steve has to do with him not being a love interest anymore? Because all the complaints against him I see apply to Marston's version. Etta had more to her under Perez than a gag character.

I think him not being a love interest any more is one of the major reasons Perez's Steve is so disliked, and it's a perfectly valid reason. It's what he was created to be. Yes he could be a bland love interest, especially in the Silver and Bronze ages, but Perez's Steve was still bland and he had even less of a purpose. They paid lip service to some superficial "older brother" relationship, but didn't do anything to warrant Diana feeling that way. They barely interacted, and her connection to him was more about his mother than him. Plus, we now have at least one near-universally praised incarnation of Steve who is a love interest (Chris Pine's), whereas nothing notable ever came of post-Crisis Steve. Wonder Woman had like 10 or so authors in the period between Post-Crisis and Flashpoint, and not one of them felt compelled to do anything with Perez's Steve. That probably means there wasn't much there to work with.

It's quite possible to tone down Etta's cartoonish qualities from the Golden Age while still keeping her a plus sized badass with a personality. We now have LoWW and Earth One to compare Perez's Etta to, and his comes up short. Gail Simone's Etta was also well received and she pretty much had to change the character into someone who may have been her Holliday Girl self before growing up into the woman we met, not someone who was always as Perez depicted her. Even Rucka's Rebirth Etta, who didn't get to do much, has a hint of a wild side to her if her trip to the mall in Year One is any indication ("Let's put some booze in her!").

Perez's takes would be like if we aged Lois and Jimmy to be twice Clark's age, and then paired them off.

[Agent Z]

I think him not being a love interest any more is one of the major reasons Perez's Steve is so disliked, and it's a perfectly valid reason. It's what he was created to be. Yes he could be a bland love interest, especially in the Silver and Bronze ages, but Perez's Steve was still bland and he had even less of a purpose. They paid lip service to some superficial "older brother" relationship, but didn't do anything to warrant Diana feeling that way. They barely interacted, and her connection to him was more about his mother than him. Plus, we now have at least one near-universally praised incarnation of Steve who is a love interest (Chris Pine's), whereas nothing notable ever came of post-Crisis Steve. Wonder Woman had like 10 or so authors in the period between Post-Crisis and Flashpoint, and not one of them felt compelled to do anything with Perez's Steve. That probably means there wasn't much there to work with.

It's quite possible to tone down Etta's cartoonish qualities from the Golden Age while still keeping her a plus sized badass with a personality. We now have LoWW and Earth One to compare Perez's Etta to, and his comes up short. Gail Simone's Etta was also well received and she pretty much had to change the character into someone who may have been her Holliday Girl self before growing up into the woman we met, not someone who was always as Perez depicted her. Even Rucka's Rebirth Etta, who didn't get to do much, has a hint of a wild side to her if her trip to the mall in Year One is any indication ("Let's put some booze in her!").

Perez's takes would be like if we aged Lois and Jimmy to be twice Clark's age, and then paired them off.

Lois doesn't have to deal with being literally the first woman Clark falls for. Even the WW movie saw fit to kill Steve off and while the character was liked thevrelationship still received a fair amount of criticism. Some things from Marston's run just couldn't be accepted after a while.

[Agent Z]

I am referring to the principles of making strong character by learning from how the characters in Death Note were characterised. Light Yagami and L Lawliet were characters with individual motives and passion and did a lot of interesting things. If writers learned from these essential principles Diana and her supporting cast would be better off.

Perez, Jiminez, Rucka, Bardugo and Simone made interesting enough characters just fine on their own.

[The Dying Detective]

Perez, Jiminez, Rucka, Bardugo and Simone made interesting enough characters just fine on their own.

Yeah but what did any of these guys do for the supporting cast who already existed? All they did was devote more time to the new characters they created. Gail Simone's Steve Trevor from the animated movie was fun to watch but to my dismay had shallow depth.

[The Dying Detective]

Lois doesn't have to deal with being literally the first woman Clark falls for. Even the WW movie saw fit to kill Steve off and while the character was liked the relationship still received a fair amount of criticism. Some things from Marston's run just couldn't be accepted after a while.

So what if something is liked just run with it there is a time and place to look for valid criticism and to just tune out mindless rambling.

[Doctor Bifrost]

Lois doesn't have to deal with being literally the first woman Clark falls for.

In publication history, she was. Lois, like Steve, was introduced in the superhero's first issue to be the love interest. With Superman, you could then - considerably later - do flashbacks showing him interested in another woman (or a girl, when he was younger) before Lois. But there's an obvious obstacle to doing that with Wonder Woman.

(Actually, there were flashbacks where Wonder Girl, still identified at that time as Diana as a teenager, was shown being attracted to Ronno the Mer-boy and Wingo the Bird-boy. In Wonder Woman #200, an adult Diana even reminisces about being a 14-year-old with a crush on Mer-Boy. Obviously involving her with a more human romantic interest before Steve would be a problem - if you're talking about a man.)

[The Dying Detective]

In publication history, she was. Lois, like Steve, was introduced in the superhero's first issue to be the love interest. With Superman, you could then - considerably later - do flashbacks showing him interested in another woman (or a girl, when he was younger) before Lois. But there's an obvious obstacle to doing that with Wonder Woman.

(Actually, there were flashbacks where Wonder Girl, still identified at that time as Diana as a teenager, was shown being attracted to Ronno the Mer-boy and Wingo the Bird-boy. In Wonder Woman #200, an adult Diana even reminisces about being a 14-year-old with a crush on Mer-Boy. Obviously involving her with a more human romantic interest before Steve would be a problem - if you're talking about a man.)

And unlike Steve Lois had a stronger character what Marston thinking back then anyway? Now a lot writers are trapped the mentality that Steve Trevor's character should be boring and having a lot of difficulty getting him out of it nothing short of another reboot can allow one to fix this problem. The problem is that no one has tried to write Steve as person he's always a love interest first that's not helping anyone. And when Perez did he only worked to preserve how boring he was as a character instead of breaking it up.

[Agent Z]

So what if something is liked just run with it there is a time and place to look for valid criticism and to just tune out mindless rambling.

The relationship wasn't liked at the time.