Bart Allen Appreciation!

[brandnewfan]

I keep checking this forum periodically to see if there's news on Bart (or Kon) coming back, but there never is.

C'mon, DC, when are you going to use these characters????

.......er, and NOT have them written by Lobdell or some other hack......

[Sam]

Are we talking about the same comic?

Yeah, it's not particularly dark at all, other than the stuff going on with Deathstroke. It's got a lot of humor and heart, and the general theme is that they are all stronger together and are there for each other when they need someone.

All of his friends and loved ones (Wally doesn't fall into this category) DID treat him with respect. The idea that they didn't in TT was OOC.

And no, Bart didn't always take situations seriously. Why should he? Because most other heroes do? The whole point of Bart as a character is that there isn't anyone quite like him. The fact that he was such a hyperactive weirdo who also had a heart as pure as they come is why I love him and can relate to him so much.

That's all there in his Teen Titans character. He's still a hyperactive weirdo who has a heart as pure as they come.

And no Wally isn't the only person who disregards or underestimates Bart at times. Jay does. Max does (even when Waid is writing him). Relationships aren't so black and white that you either take someone seriously all the time or never take them seriously. Bart has a history of not being listened to, from all the adults around him, except maybe Linda.

Shakes head Nope.

You'll forgive me if that fails to convince me.

[Assam]

Yeah, it's not particularly dark at all, other than the stuff going on with Deathstroke. It's got a lot of humor and heart, and the general theme is that they are all stronger together and are there for each other when they need someone.

And that theme rings false because the characters themselves were all made much less fun/strong, all of the YJ4 getting taken over by body snatchers in order to pull that off. Because guess what? That theme was already used in Young Justice, and done a Hell of a lot better.

That's all there in his Teen Titans character. He's still a hyperactive weirdo who has a heart as pure as they come.

As both Sakuyamons and I said, Johns basically normalized him that regard.

And no Wally isn't the only person who disregards or underestimates Bart at times. Jay does. Max does (even when Waid is writing him). Relationships aren't so black and white that you either take someone seriously all the time or never take them seriously. Bart has a history of not being listened to, from all the adults around him, except maybe Linda.

The two had met sure and Bart cared for Jay, but they had no special connection prior to Johns. And as for Max, you've yet to see how their relationship developed.

You'll forgive me if that fails to convince me.

Because there's no point. I feel you are objectively wrong, and I'm not clearly not going to sway you.

[Sam]

And that theme rings false because the characters themselves were all made much less fun/strong, all of the YJ4 getting taken over by body snatchers in order to pull that off. Because guess what? That theme was already used in Young Justice, and done a Hell of a lot better.

But the characters were fun, so I don't really follow that. Bart and Tim (especially Tim) feel super consistent with their solo series selves. Cassie, I haven't read as much of, but seems fairly similar to how Jimenez was writing her in Wonder Woman. Conner is, thankfully, maturing. No one has written him better than Johns from what I've read so far (Boy of Steel being the absolute best).

As both Sakuyamons and I said, Johns basically normalized him that regard.

You can say it all you want, but you guys haven't back it up with more than stating he's normalized, which I don't see frankly.

The two had met sure and Bart cared for Jay, but they had no special connection prior to Johns. And as for Max, you've yet to see how their relationship developed.

Well, Max wasn't around anymore, he isn't trying to prove anything to Max. And, again, very late into Waid's Flash run, Max still doesn't always take Bart seriously, but that is a very different thing from the two not caring about each other. Wally is the main person he is trying to make a point too, and while the two haven't always been close, Bart has always wanted Wally's approval, right from Terminal Velocity.

Because there's no point. I feel you are objectively wrong, and I'm not clearly not going to sway you.

Well, that's the problem. This isn't really an objective issue. It's very subjective. These are our opinions. No one can be objectively wrong on in this argument. Or if they could, it wouldn't be in a way that we could ever perceive. It's about the feelings they bring out in us. I think Johns's run is one of the best Teen Titans runs there is (until Infinite Crisis, the series doesn't recover from losing Bart and Conner until it regains Bart and Conner and Krul takes over). You don't. Whatever. Opinions differ, but they are subjective.

[Assam]

But the characters were fun, so I don't really follow that. Bart and Tim (especially Tim) feel super consistent with their solo series selves. Cassie, I haven't read as much of, but seems fairly similar to how Jimenez was writing her in Wonder Woman. Conner is, thankfully, maturing. No one has written him better than Johns from what I've read so far (Boy of Steel being the absolute best).

We clearly have different ideas of "fun." Anyway, Tim was probably the closest to his solo book, but even then, his solo book was getting real bad at that point, and the changes being made to his character there were not good ones. (Also, again, the idea of him not respecting Bart was BS) Cassie received the bulk of her development in Young Justice (You not having read it explains a lot. Most who love Johns run never read YJ), growing into a strong leader, rather than the clingy, annoying and weak girlfriend to Kon which was her role in TT. What was done to Kon wasn't quite as bad as Bart and Cassie, particularly because he got A LOT better after his resurrection, but Johns still took away all of his charm, was the first writer to complicate his origin, and literally made his fanfiction canon.

Well, that's the problem. This isn't really an objective issue. It's very subjective. These are our opinions. No one can be objectively wrong on in this argument. Or if they could, it wouldn't be in a way that we could ever perceive. It's about the feelings they bring out in us. I think Johns's run is one of the best Teen Titans runs there is (until Infinite Crisis, the series doesn't recover from losing Bart and Conner until it regains Bart and Conner and Krul takes over). You don't. Whatever. Opinions differ, but they are subjective.

Whether or not Johns' run is good is subjective. As you said, it evokes different feelings in us. Whether or not Johns drastically changed the characters though is not subjective. You said this is your first time reading through Robin, Superboy and Impulse, yes? And you haven't read Young Justice? Let's table this until you've read through those. Then tell me if you really believe these to be the same characters.

[sakuyamons]

Tim is actually the one that is written more consistently in TT, and I respectfully disagree with Cassie being written correctly, the Cassie in Jimenez run is one of my favorite takes of the character, and Johns Cassie is nothing like her, Jimenez' Cassie is more in sync with her YJ counterpart while Johns' Cassie acts like she had never led on his life.

Now, unlike the other ones, Cassie HAS an excuse to angst, because Donna died in a very forgettable crossover, and that naturally affects her, but Johns never quite *works* on giving her back her leadership skillls, and rather we are given a lot of chickification on TT v3 and her relationship with Superboy quite damaged the character in the book.

Imo Rucka's Cassie is Way better than Johns Cassie, but this is not her appreciation thread . I think Kon in TT is...I don't know, I don't think a character has to be less fun to grow up, I think his take on Kon is different, but I'm surprised he wrote it so different from what he used to call his favorite character, I think he did good on him in the mini-run that had Manapul in art, but I might be biased because I love his art and I could read pretty much everything with Manapul's art

[Sam]

We clearly have different ideas of "fun." Anyway, Tim was probably the closest to his solo book, but even then, his solo book was getting real bad at that point, and the changes being made to his character there were not good ones. (Also, again, the idea of him not respecting Bart was BS) Cassie received the bulk of her development in Young Justice (You not having read it explains a lot. Most who love Johns run never read YJ), growing into a strong leader, rather than the clingy, annoying and weak girlfriend to Kon which was her role in TT. What was done to Kon wasn't quite as bad as Bart and Cassie, particularly because he got A LOT better after his resurrection, but Johns still took away all of his charm, was the first writer to complicate his origin, and literally made his fanfiction canon.

Whether or not Johns' run is good is subjective. As you said, it evokes different feelings in us. Whether or not Johns drastically changed the characters though is not subjective. You said this is your first time reading through Robin, Superboy and Impulse, yes? And you haven't read Young Justice? Let's table this until you've read through those. Then tell me if you really believe these to be the same characters.

First off, while I haven't read a lot of Young Justice, I have have read some. After I loved John's Titans, I really wanted to read more stuff with the various characters, but I actually had a lot of trouble getting into it. It was just too inconsequential and while I realize having Superboy constantly talk about his tactile telekenesis was satire, it didn't make it any less annoying. Decided the put it aside while I checked out other books I was more interested in. So don't use the fact that I haven't read all of Young Justice to dismiss my opinion or explain my feelings. It's condescending.

Second, no, John's Titans was not my first exposure to Tim or Bart. Not by a long shot. It's a little more true of Conner and Cassie, although still technically inaccurate. Regardless, my love for Conner as a character was born out of both the Young Justice cartoon and Johns's Titans run. He was the writer who really gave Conner depth and, in my opinion, actually made Conner charming. Johns making his fanfiction canon seems like a fairly hollow criticism as that is literally what every writer who writes for DC comics is doing.

Third, absolutely whether the characters are OOC under Johns is a subjective viewpoint. There's really no way around that.

Tim is actually the one that is written more consistently in TT, and I respectfully disagree with Cassie being written correctly, the Cassie in Jimenez run is one of my favorite takes of the character, and Johns Cassie is nothing like her, Jimenez' Cassie is more in sync with her YJ counterpart while Johns' Cassie acts like she had never led on his life.

Now, unlike the other ones, Cassie HAS an excuse to angst, because Donna died in a very forgettable crossover, and that naturally affects her, but Johns never quite *works* on giving her back her leadership skillls, and rather we are given a lot of chickification on TT v3 and her relationship with Superboy quite damaged the character in the book.

Imo Rucka's Cassie is Way better than Johns Cassie, but this is not her appreciation thread . I think Kon in TT is...I don't know, I don't think a character has to be less fun to grow up, I think his take on Kon is different, but I'm surprised he wrote it so different from what he used to call his favorite character, I think he did good on him in the mini-run that had Manapul in art, but I might be biased because I love his art and I could read pretty much everything with Manapul's art

Gar is one of my favorite characters, yet if I was giving the power to do so, I would write him very differently than Wolfman and various other writers did (goodbye inappropriate interaction with female characters). Someone being a writer's favorite character doesn't prevent them from adding a different spin. In fact, I think writers are often attracted to characters for whom they feel they really they have something to add to the canon. And I disagree that Conner is somehow not fun in Teen Titans.

[sakuyamons]

I keep checking this forum periodically to see if there's news on Bart (or Kon) coming back, but there never is.

C'mon, DC, when are you going to use these characters????

.......er, and NOT have them written by Lobdell or some other hack......

Apparently they're not coming back with Tim. I know it wasn't confirmed but I'm very dissapointed.

[Assam]

So don't use the fact that I haven't read all of Young Justice to dismiss my opinion or explain my feelings. It's condescending.

Not being condescending. Simply stating that you're making comments without having all the facts in mind. Do you know why I read all of Johns' run even though I hate it? It's so I could properly critique it, have all the information I need, and not just say "THIS SUCKS!".

Regardless, my love for Conner as a character was born out of both the Young Justice cartoon and Johns's Titans run.

And again, that's what I generally hear from people who enjoy Johns' run. The simple fact that you call him Conner as opposed to Kon shows where you're coming from. And there's nothing wrong with that. But you're ignoring other perspectives. Specifically, that of fans who understood him and loved him. After all...

He was the writer who really gave Conner depth .

...you're making this false claim based on, having now gotten the facts straight, a little of Superboy and Young Justice. The idea of whether Kon or Conner is more charming is subjective, but saying that he had no depth before Johns is ludicrous. In neither his solo book or YJ was he a 2-dimensional, flat character. If you don't like Kon-El, that's perfectly fine. I've got zero problem with that. But this is why I brought up tabling the discussion. If you're not interested in him, okay, but don't make specific insults towards a character you haven't read much of. It's like when people call Cass Cain boring because she only had a handful of good appearances outside her solo book, and they haven't read said solo book.

Johns making his fanfiction canon seems like a fairly hollow criticism as that is literally what every writer who writes for DC comics is doing.

Technically true, but it's a little more jarring when Johns literally originated this story as fanfiction, as opposed to just bringing new ideas to the character when brought onto the book.

Third, absolutely whether the characters are OOC under Johns is a subjective viewpoint. There's really no way around that.

Subjectivity is about someone's opinion, rather than something which can be proven as true. Put these characters side by side with their YJ counterparts, and the differences are blatant. You don't think it's true. But, (and I don't mean this in an insulting way at all, it's just the first analogy I thought of) just because there are some people who still think that the Earth is flat doesn't make the Earth being round any less of an objective fact.

[Sam]

Not being condescending. Simply stating that you're making comments without having all the facts in mind. Do you know why I read all of Johns' run even though I hate it? It's so I could properly critique it, have all the information I need, and not just say "THIS SUCKS!".

That's ridiculous. You don't need to read or watch every word of something to know it isn't for you. You shouldn't read all of something if you aren't enjoying it and no one should ever expect you to. And even if you do read it all, it doesn't give you any more of license to say it sucks than if you read one issue, because that still isn't an objective determination. Irregardless, my original position was simply that Bart in Impulse and Bart in Teen Titans seems like the same character to me and everything people say isn't still in Bart's character really seems to be there. I don't need to have read his entire canon to have that opinion and my opinion is no less valuable. I happen to be reading more because I am enjoying Impulse and want to read more, but it isn't fair to expect people to read everything you've read just to have an opinion on Bart and the others in Teen Titans.

And again, that's what I generally hear from people who enjoy Johns' run. The simple fact that you call him Conner as opposed to Kon shows where you're coming from. And there's nothing wrong with that. But you're ignoring other perspectives. Specifically, that of fans who understood him and loved him. After all...

...you're making this false claim based on, having now gotten the facts straight, a little of Superboy and Young Justice. The idea of whether Kon or Conner is more charming is subjective, but saying that he had no depth before Johns is ludicrous. In neither his solo book or YJ was he a 2-dimensional, flat character. If you don't like Kon-El, that's perfectly fine. I've got zero problem with that. But this is why I brought up tabling the discussion. If you're not interested in him, okay, but don't make specific insults towards a character you haven't read much of. It's like when people call Cass Cain boring because she only had a handful of good appearances outside her solo book, and they haven't read said solo book.

First off, you seem to be missing the parts of my post where I am saying in my opinion. You also seem to have misunderstood what I meant about giving Conner depth. I didn't mean he was the first writer to make Conner 3-D dimensional. I meant, from my perspective, the writer who really made Conner a deep and worthwhile character that I was interested in was Johns in Teen Titans. Since I am reading books out of order of where they are in the DC timeline, that just speaks to where I first encountered Conner's depth. Not when the character was actually made three dimensional.

Second, at no point did I insult the character. I love Conner. If I did call the character 2-Dimensional, which again I didn't, that's not a criticism of the character, only the person writing him. Admittedly, though, I am 12 issues into his 90s solo series, and I don't think he's been given much depth yet, although there were a couple promising hints in the last couple issues. My problem with the series so far stems mostly from the incredibly creepy romantic pairings.

Technically true, but it's a little more jarring when Johns literally originated this story as fanfiction, as opposed to just bringing new ideas to the character when brought onto the book.

Only because he, like other fans, but unlike some other writers, was public about his ideas before he joined the series. It doesn't make his ideas any less legitimate.

Subjectivity is about someone's opinion, rather than something which can be proven as true. Put these characters side by side with their YJ counterparts, and the differences are blatant. You don't think it's true. But, (and I don't mean this in an insulting way at all, it's just the first analogy I thought of) just because there are some people who still think that the Earth is flat doesn't make the Earth being round any less of an objective fact.

Faulty analogy, as this cannot objectively be proven as true. It is an interpretation of the text. Period. It's subjective.

[sakuyamons]

I feel that when Geoff wrote Teen Titans, he was relatively young writing wise and under the idea that the darker the better, there is no questioning that TT v3 was "darker and edgier" than their YJ counterpart, but for comparing these characters you have to read YJ first, I like Geoff and TT just fine, but the way the characters were written was way off, a character interpretation doesn't mean it has to be good, like, Lobdell essentially writting...whatever he attempted to do with Bar Torr could be assumed as a modern interpretation for the "new" era in the n52.

There were moments that I liked in TT v3 (the way they completely put Cassie's leadership skills down the ground not being one of them) but I overall think that TTv3 normalized Bart and made him your average young speedster, like Tommy Shepherd (who I love) instead of his wacky counterpart, I think his "coming" of age could have happened without sacrificing part of what made him so fun, Kid Flash Lost managed to write Bart's insecurities regarding his grandpa better than Johns did in TT.

I also hate-read things to have my opinion on it like Assam does except that for me it's N52 Wonder Woman.

[Frontier]

I feel that when Geoff wrote Teen Titans, he was relatively young writing wise and under the idea that the darker the better, there is no questioning that TT v3 was "darker and edgier" than their YJ counterpart, but for comparing these characters you have to read YJ first, I like Geoff and TT just fine, but the way the characters were written was way off, a character interpretation doesn't mean it has to be good, like, Lobdell essentially writting...whatever he attempted to do with Bar Torr could be assumed as a modern interpretation for the "new" era in the n52.

There were moments that I liked in TT v3 (the way they completely put Cassie's leadership skills down the ground not being one of them) but I overall think that TTv3 normalized Bart and made him your average young speedster, like Tommy Shepherd (who I love) instead of his wacky counterpart, I think his "coming" of age could have happened without sacrificing part of what made him so fun, Kid Flash Lost managed to write Bart's insecurities regarding his grandpa better than Johns did in TT.

I also hate-read things to have my opinion on it like Assam does except that for me it's N52 Wonder Woman.

I think the thing with Young Justice and Teen Titans is the tonal shift between the two.

I don't want to say it was "darker and edgier" but it did try and go back to a tone and style more reminiscent of Wolfman and Perez (along with a roster to match) and kind of revamped or re-contexualized the Young Justice generation to accompany that.

Almost like when we went from the original Titans to the New Teen Titans.

[Sam]

Exactly, "darker and edgier" than Young Justice doesn't really equate to "dark and edgy". I think New Teen Titans is a good comparison. Likewise, putting the same characters in a new context doesn't necessarily change the core of the characters. I just wish Johns could have run with it longer than he did before Infinite Crisis got in the way.

[sakuyamons]

Exactly, "darker and edgier" than Young Justice doesn't really equate to "dark and edgy". I think New Teen Titans is a good comparison. Likewise, putting the same characters in a new context doesn't necessarily change the core of the characters. I just wish Johns could have run with it longer than he did before Infinite Crisis got in the way.

But it did with the YJ4, and NTT respects that there was something before them, Garth and Roy pop off from time to time and Dick says that him and Donna have always been friends, although Graduation Day wasn't Johns doing, it began the idea that the YJ wasn't "good enough" or was "serious enough" to be taken seriously (that plus some really distasteful comments from the directive in later years).

I feel that the attempt of doing the NTT roaster was obvious since that's mainly why Bart abandoned the impulse mantle (Johns and Waid fought tooth and nail over it) and I not so secretly wish that Mia had been part of the main roaster; but I feel it was the beggining of the misunderstanding of these characters and that's kind of why we end up having those really bad doppelgängers in the reboot

[Sam]

In your opinion, and the opinion of some others as well. In my opinion, those characters seem the same. Anyway, Johns's run does contain a lot of references to the past, including some of the other Young Justice characters showing up in cameos.

Just to be clear, my understanding is Waid and Johns did not fight with each other over the Kid Flash thing, but both were on the same side. And this was true again when making Bart The Flash.

Also, As much as I like Mia, I don't know how she could have been a part of the initial roster as she didn't actually become Speedy until about a year or two into Johns's run.