Red Hood and the Outlaws #10 Preview/Discussion

[Rise]

No, I think she's shallow because her characterization so far is just "angry amazon with a sarcastic streak" and she only shines when interacting with other characters. Her interactions with Jason are the most interesting of the bunch because is a mirror of the dynamic Roy and Jason had back on Volume 1.

Issue 8 only gave us four pages to develop Akila and Artemis' friendship, not enough time to create a strong bond between them and there's not a lot of difference between their personalities so their interactions are pretty dull compared to the ones with Jason or Bizarro. The biggest standout if the romantic tension between them but Lobdell writes in such a way that it seems like only Akila is the one completely infatuated that again, it feels shallow due the little development it has. The crush Jason has on Artemis works a lot better because is a small and subtle part of their interactions rather than the focus.

Oh and take notice on how your argument about Arkila is not about her character but about her ties with Artemis. Akila is nothing more than a device to move the plot forward not a character, no different to the way Sheila comes up out of nowhere to drive the original DITF, or the way Morrison used Jason on his run.

How can you say that she is just "angry amazon with a sarcastic streak" when we literally saw a different side of her in this issue?

Artemis is a character who hardly appeared since the 90's and Lobdell has to build her from zero. It’s takes time and so far he is doing a great job with her.

And from where did you got that Jason has a crush on her? Because I'm completely sure that he isn't romantically interested in her. Lobdell even implied from the beginning that the two will have a platonic relationship.

Also, I already said that Alika is just a plot device. I just don't think that she is a "shallow" character because we know that she never wanted to be a shim'tar and something bad happened to her when she got chosen. We also know that the Bow affected her and made her go crazy. That doesn't make her just an "evil" character.

[Alycat]

Maybe we should've gotten an entire non flashback issue with just Akila and Artemis? I do think Artemi having to built from the ground up hurts and limits her and characters connected to her quite a bit. Akila is clearly on borrowed time and the bits and pieces of their relationship just aren't hitting me. Like it's big fat meh so far. I wonder if it's a personality problem between the 2. Like the noble warrior stuff and lack of contrast.

[Aioros22]

Yeah, Artemis is pretty much a blank page despite having been Wonder Woman before but that`s all she`s done of relevant. Even then, like the rest of the replacement pack back then the whole point of the narrative was to end up bringing the original folk and show why these replacement felt short.

As far as I read that`s why her plot runs slower than Jason`s. And it wouldn`t happen otherwise, not only is Jason the exact opposite of a blank page, he`s a deadliner and one of the most complex characters of the line.

But as far as Artemis? I`m enjoying the narrative buildup that it`s required. Akila is a plot device? Well, true enough, she`s there to make the character get the ball running with her own demons and decisions. It`s just to me that doesn`t work as a disservice to Artemis as a character one bit.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

How can you say that she is just "angry amazon with a sarcastic streak" when we literally saw a different side of her in this issue?

Artemis is a character who hardly appeared since the 90's and Lobdell has to build her from zero. It’s takes time and so far he is doing a great job with her.

And from where did you got that Jason has a crush on her? Because I'm completely sure that he isn't romantically interested in her. Lobdell even implied from the beginning that the two will have a platonic relationship.

Also, I already said that Alika is just a plot device. I just don't think that she is a "shallow" character because we know that she never wanted to be a shim'tar and something bad happened to her when she got chosen. We also know that the Bow affected her and made her go crazy. That doesn't make her just an "evil" character.

That's the thing, the reveal of the new facet is not one that feels particularly earned or compelling at the moment and you can't erase eight issues worth of characterization in just six pages.

And that is the problem, with so many possibilities at hand, Lobdell is playing extremely safe with Artemis. in paper the new mythology built around the Bana Mighdall is an interesting one but the execution isn't quite there and fails to be engaging due how focused is on Artemis. Contrast it with the All-Caste whom were more than Jason's teachers during their introduction. And even then, they still remain one of the most polarizing additions from Lobdell to Jason's canon.

We have a drunk Jason trying to hit on her from issue 8, the multiple moments from issues 3 to 7 where Jason is completely stunned by Artemis, the mentions of Artemis being the sole reason he's willing to go back at Qurac. Plus a platonic relationship implies certain degree of romantic interest between the two characters involved by definition.

Maybe we should've gotten an entire non flashback issue with just Akila and Artemis? I do think Artemi having to built from the ground up hurts and limits her and characters connected to her quite a bit. Akila is clearly on borrowed time and the bits and pieces of their relationship just aren't hitting me. Like it's big fat meh so far. I wonder if it's a personality problem between the 2. Like the noble warrior stuff and lack of contrast.

Yeah, that's why I mentioned the three issue format is being a hindrance for this arc in particular. Having more room to sell why Akila is so important for Artemis would make the conflict more engaging. Is as if the first arc of RHATO V1 were focused on avenging Ducra rather than building Jason's character.

And yeah, Akila and Artemis are too similar to provide an interesting dynamic.

[Vinsanity]

Man, this issue was awesome. Even if Akila is a plot device, that's okay. Plot devices, drives plots.

[Agent Z]

edited post.

[Rise]

That's the thing, the reveal of the new facet is not one that feels particularly earned or compelling at the moment and you can't erase eight issues worth of characterization in just six pages.

And that is the problem, with so many possibilities at hand, Lobdell is playing extremely safe with Artemis. in paper the new mythology built around the Bana Mighdall is an interesting one but the execution isn't quite there and fails to be engaging due how focused is on Artemis. Contrast it with the All-Caste whom were more than Jason's teachers during their introduction. And even then, they still remain one of the most polarizing additions from Lobdell to Jason's canon.

You first complained that Artemis is just an "angry amazon" and now you complain about her having a different side because it was rushed? What?

And what a weird comparison you making here? All-Caste were addition to Jason's canon while Bana-Mighdall is Artemis origin, there's quite a different here.

In the first arc, we learned that Artemis was searching for the bow. In the second, we learned why she was searching for it, who the Bana-Mighdall Amazons and we were given a look at Artemis' past by establishing Alika in her life. Lobdell isn't going to reveal everything about her and the Bana-Mighdall just in the second arc because it's supposed to be the beginning of her journey, not the end of it.

We have a drunk Jason trying to hit on her from issue 8, the multiple moments from issues 3 to 7 where Jason is completely stunned by Artemis, the mentions of Artemis being the sole reason he's willing to go back at Qurac. Plus a platonic relationship implies certain degree of romantic interest between the two characters involved by definition.

Not offensive, but you are really reaching hard here...

The bar scene is a funny moment that shouldn't be taken seriously and Jason was more "stunned" by Bizarro in issue 3-7 than by her.

And yeah, Jason went to Qurac for her because he promised that he will help her after she helped him with Black Mask. That doesn't mean that he has a "crush" on her because if does, then Jason also has a crush on Roy apparently since he also went to Qurac to help him.

[G-Potion]

The bar scene is a funny moment that shouldn't be taken seriously and Jason was more "stunned" by Bizarro in issue 3-7 than by her.

I laughed. But it's true though.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

You first complained that Artemis is just an "angry amazon" and now you complain about her having a different side because it was rushed? What?

I'm not complaining about the execution, I'm complaining about your statement that seemingly this issue is enough to overshadow Artemis characterization on the rest of the series.

And what a weird comparison you making here? All-Caste were addition to Jason's canon while Bana-Mighdall is Artemis origin, there's quite a different here.

Not really. Akilla, the Shim'tar, the Bow of Ra, Qurac are all new additions from Lobdell's to Artemis' canon. But that wasn't my point, my point was that the All Caste monks and Ducra showed a better defined characterization on one issue that Akilla does on two issues.

In the first arc, we learned that Artemis was searching for the bow. In the second, we learned why she was searching for it, who the Bana-Mighdall Amazons and we were given a look at Artemis' past by establishing Alika in her life. Lobdell isn't going to reveal everything about her and the Bana-Mighdall just in the second arc because it's supposed to be the beginning of her journey, not the end of it.

You're misunderstanding me. I don't want to get all revealed right now, I want for those revelations to have actual build up.

Also, there has been a shift on Artemis' direction between the two arcs. Issue 2 heavily implied Artemis was on a personal quest to prove her worthiness to Nephtys and the Bow of Ra itself with no hint whatsoever about Akilla or the Shim'tar. Truth be told, the angle of Artemis on a mythical quest akin to the Greek heroes of legend was a much more appealing one that the current one.

Not offensive, but you are really reaching hard here...

The bar scene is a funny moment that shouldn't be taken seriously and Jason was more "stunned" by Bizarro in issue 3-7 than by her.

And yeah, Jason went to Qurac for her because he promised that he will help her after she helped him with Black Mask. That doesn't mean that he has a "crush" on her because if does, then Jason also has a crush on Roy apparently since he also went to Qurac to help him.

Jason doesn't show awe for Bizarro at all, only a sense of kinship with the guy. Whereas he's constantly impressed by Artemis' actions and as they spend more time together, Jason shows a degree of consideration for Artemis that he hasn't shown before. Not even for Roy. You're also forgetting Lobdell's knack for using moments where Jason isn't in full control of himself to actually let us know what he actually think. The first time Jason admitted he cared for Roy and Kori was during his induced coma on issue 18, the second annual revealed how he still sees Bruce as his father and while hopped up on Venom he admitted how he missed the quietness of death.

Roy is a different case entirely because Jason's actions and words back then showed he only saved Roy because he felt responsible, not because he was particularly invested on Roy's well being. Also, he knew exactly where Roy was, so he didn't need to stay on Qurac any longer than needed. With Artemis he volunteered despite lacking any certainty on the Bow's whereabouts, meaning they could stay on Qurac just a couple of hours or days until they found more solid leads.

[Aioros22]

I think the first time Jason kind of slips how he cares for Roy and Kory was much earlier than that. There`s the limo scene where Jason`s dialogue gives the slip. But there is the point that he`s the sort of person that only gives true meaning when his defenses are down.

That said I recall Jason showing a good deal of awe of Kory in several moments, right down from the start when he considers her one of his teachers and from that moment on it only escalated in terms of how strong willed she tends to be. With Artemis, it`s a bit early to tell but what Loedbell is doing different is that the dinamic isn`t the same. Sometimes as if, Kory was the highschool sweetheart and Artemis is the fiancee. Is that where you`re going, Dark?

That said, I`m not sure I agree he didn`t care about Roy`s well being in Qurac in the first issue. Reading RATHO from the beginning you get that idea, sure, but later on is revealed that Roy and Jason were already friends since their junior years. To me that bridges with how RRAA ends.

[Alycat]

I've reread this arc again and yeah the shortness is a big factor of why I'm not feeling it combined with Akila and Artemis having a dry relationship due to their personalities. There's nothing wrong with a character being just a plot device . Sometimes it needed to get the story moving. But the lack of character or differences in character make it boring to read about. They are too similar and her being good but not in control of the bow isn't all that interesting imo.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

I think the first time Jason kind of slips how he cares for Roy and Kory was much earlier than that. There`s the limo scene where Jason`s dialogue gives the slip. But there is the point that he`s the sort of person that only gives true meaning when his defenses are down.

Oh Jason definitely cared for them since the start, but issue 18 is the first time where he downright admits it.

That said I recall Jason showing a good deal of awe of Kory in several moments, right down from the start when he considers her one of his teachers and from that moment on it only escalated in terms of how strong willed she tends to be. With Artemis, it`s a bit early to tell but what Lobdell is doing different is that the dynamic isn't the same. Sometimes as if, Kory was the highschool sweetheart and Artemis is the fiancee. Is that where you`re going, Dark?

Jason's admiration for Kori was more about respect and the acknowledgment she "had it" together better than him. Personally I never got any sort of tension between Jason and Kori from their interactions or dialogue. Jason rarely mentioned Kori on his monologues while he seemingly can't stop himself of mentioning Artemis at least twice per issue now.

That said, I`m not sure I agree he didn`t care about Roy`s well being in Qurac in the first issue. Reading RATHO from the beginning you get that idea, sure, but later on is revealed that Roy and Jason were already friends since their junior years. To me that bridges with how RHA ends.

Even taking into account their past together, the rescue of Roy was always something that came off as something did out a of sense of obligation and a need to prove himself better than Bruce. No doubt stemming from the way he was isolated from everyone back then. Contrast it with his actions at the end of RHA where he pretty much goes nuclear over the fear for Roy's safety.

[Bookem Danno]

Hmm. This was the weakest issue yet. Artemis' plot is lacking surprises and Arkila is a weak antagonist due a lack of proper development on her character and relationship with Artemis.

Jason amd Bizarro's plots are much more interesting but this is one of those moments where a longer arc would've been preferable. Jason's conflict was solved too quick and Bizarro is sort of a footnote.

Artemis' plot was... alright; there was exposition and movement ahead with the Bow of Ra story which the sooner over the better. Jason's arc was long enough, for me, given it was all just a mindscape journey with little impact beyond forgiving himself for dying before his time.

Still an enjoyable read but not as good as before.

Seconded.

So, if everything is going back to pre-Flashpoint with the Rebirth Event can anyone confirm yet if Artemis did or didn't sub for Wonder Woman for that run?