Detective Comics #956 preview

[CPSparkles]

Tim says: "this new team at the Belfry", it's the Tec' team.

Clearly he is talking about the JLA not the Tec team here when he says what next your own JL. I don't like the idea of the tec team or any bat family team being any sort of JL. I'm not a fan of Batman on the JL in general. if you have your own team then get off the actual league and make space for others to get focus.

[CPSparkles]

Just because Shiva is better then batman doesn't mean batman should'nt be able to put up a good fight. he puts up a good fight against Deathstroke even though deathstroke with his abilities in most cases >>> Batman. Doomsday Is Stronger Then Superman But Superman Can still fight him at the very least

My Point when bring all those up was to show how the team was essentially made to look small at every turn this entire arc just to show the power of cassandra. and as fan I like the power of cassandra but you can't make everyone else look completely incompetent in the process there is no reason why batwing should be able to be beat shiva with physical attacks. (Clayface too especially)

Lady Vic at least shorted his suit out and kicked him off the side of building but how can a non metahuman do enough physical damage to keep batwing at bay when a giant superhuman has thrown him through walls and punched him directly multiple times with no serious injuries the first couple of times he did it??? Bad writing thats all.

Shiva is good but this team written correctly >>>>> Shiva

Unless shiva is ''magical'' (her eyes do seem to have been drawn with a certain glow in recent comics) so prehaps but if not this nonsense

Nice avatar dude.

[darkseidpwns]

See unclepulky's response right above yours.



I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Shiva and Luke haven't directly engaged each other yet apart from a single elbow from Shiva. And again, Luke is wounded and has lost a lot of blood. So has Kate, so has JPV. Batman is recovering from a dose of paralyzing gas. Clayface was catastrophically dismembered and kept that way for, what, hours?

They're all at their limit right now. Running on fumes, as I've repeatedly said. This isn't hard to understand.

Or maybe Tynion could have kept them all naked and trapped? thus voiding this entire debate. But he chose to involve them in the fight, now the criticism is perfectly legitimate. Shiva wont last 10 seconds against these guys no matter how weak they are for the simple reason that she cant even hurt 3 of them. Az has combat AI, Batwing can easily gas her. The mechanics of who vs who dont concern me when the fights are just there for entertainment purposes. Tynion is not the first writer to write a stupid fight scene. I can ignore it in favor of the story, only problem here is that the story here circles around characters beating each other. All this arc has done is to take every single criticism levelled against Cass over the years and highlighted them rather thoroughly.
This entire story boils down to beating up faceless mooks h2h and then beating up Shiva. While the writer distracts you with a worthless frame up side plot and the non existent mystery of this League.

[GodofBoredom]

Shiva has never been superior to Bruce in their entire history, and it has been made a point that he is at least as good, either stalemating her while explicitly equal in skill (Death in the Family):
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/l...va-family6.jpg
or winning (Superman/Batman):
http://s289.photobucket.com/user/dar...hiva1.jpg.html
http://s289.photobucket.com/user/dar...hiva2.jpg.html
http://s289.photobucket.com/user/dar...hiva3.jpg.html

Bruce is regarded, even in Shiva's circles, as the best fighter in the world:
http://castleparadox.com/uncommon/qu...;88%20pg18.jpg

Tynion is trying really, really hard to pander to anybody who doesn't like Bruce and would like the Bat-family (Cassandra specifically this time) to overshadow him, ignoring continuity and Bruce's formidability.

Hell, a Cassandra fan in this thread itself, who doesn't even have Bruce in her top 100 characters, suddenly now "likes him" as he is for once. How shocking.

Instead of trying to appease those who want Bruce to be a doormat for other characters, how about making everybody look good, without the expense of already established characters?

I have nothing against him writing the Bat-family book, giving anybody he wants the spotlight, but keep Bruce out of it. It just makes many actual fans of the character turn on him, and avoid him like plague.

[Katana500]

Even if Bruce is the best fighter in the world. Shiva is still extremely formidable and is definitely in the top ten best.

I dont see what's wrong with Bruce being beaten by another extremely competent fighter. In Martial Arts in real life the best fighters can often lose to others who are in the top ten or even below.

You could also argue that Bruce was not at the top of his game - he has made it pretty clear that no one else can die after Tim - and suddenly to member of his team are gone and captured. Even the most level headed person is bound to be stressed out in such circumstances. He is just a man after all - I like it when he makes mistakes. If not he would always win and it would be boring and predictable

[Assam]

Hell, a Cassandra fan in this thread itself, who doesn't even have Bruce in her top 100 characters, suddenly now "likes him" as he is for once. How shocking.

I'm honestly kinda tired of several months now of people arguing about "Shiva v Bruce" especially now since the fact that it's taking anyone more than Cass to beat her shows that Tynion has buffed Shiva. And it's not like comic fighters are strangers to the idea of massively getting better; just look at all 4 graduated Robins Pre-Flashpoint.

As for the piece of the post I actually quoted, two things:

1. You think I'm a "her"? I have no intention of revealing my gender one way or another, but I am curious what gave you that idea.
2. If this Bruce was in the solo Batman title, getting everything done himself, he'd still be my favorite version. My liking of this version of the character mostly just comes down to the fact that he's a nice guy who actually seems to give a crap about his Bat"Family", and feels like an actual human being.

Also, everything Katana500 said in the post above this is accurate.

[Assam]

Or maybe Tynion could have kept them all naked and trapped? thus voiding this entire debate. But he chose to involve them in the fight, now the criticism is perfectly legitimate. Shiva wont last 10 seconds against these guys no matter how weak they are for the simple reason that she cant even hurt 3 of them. Az has combat AI, Batwing can easily gas her. The mechanics of who vs who dont concern me when the fights are just there for entertainment purposes. Tynion is not the first writer to write a stupid fight scene. I can ignore it in favor of the story, only problem here is that the story here circles around characters beating each other.

See I was originally thinking the way you were on this part, but then I remembered something.

Cass has canonically been shown to be able to hit harder than a bullet. Obviously, this is ridiculous. However, going off this insane comic book logic, if Cass can hit that hard, it only makes sense that a Shiva who is now above Cass could do so as well. Now, hitting harder than a bullet still wouldn't be enough to get through Luke of JPV's defenses entirely. However, enough force WOULD be enough to maybe re-open their wounds, like what happened to Kate in the preview. Factor in how exhausted they must be, and Bruce sending Clayface off with Kate, and I think it makes sense.

All this arc has done is to take every single criticism levelled against Cass over the years and highlighted them rather thoroughly.

Yes, all those illogical criticisms mostly doled out by people who most of the time haven't even read her solo book or any of her several great appearances outside of it, and who sometimes, I stress this, SOMETIMES are pretty blatantly sexist and/or racist. The idea that Cass is a bland mary sue who is only good for punching things really hard is absolutely ludicrous. She's a deep character who has been completely fleshed out, while also proving to just be a lot of fun.

And yes, her H2H feats ARE bloody ridiculous. But considering all her character flaws and the fact that skill wise, she's only well-above average in other areas, the fact that she can one shot a giant monster for comedic effect doesn't make her a Mary Sue, which honestly, has probably become one of the most misused words on the internet. Going off the apparent meaning from people who insult Cass, every main DC hero would qualify as a Mary Sue.

[Katana500]

If this Bruce was in the solo Batman title, getting everything done himself, he'd still be my favorite version. My liking of this version of the character mostly just comes down to the fact that he's a nice guy who actually seems to give a crap about his Bat"Family", and feels like an actual human being.

Also, everything Katana500 said in the post above this is accurate.

He is alot more likeable when he cares more about his family and associates

Also if he cant lose to Shiva without anyone being annoyed - essentially any street level villian has ceased being a threat, as their is no one else much better than her.

Also I totally cant wait for this issue! Gonna be good!

[WhipWhirlwind]

I honestly find it kind of boring when Batman is supposed to be the best at everything. For me the impressive thing about him is that he is top 3-5 at pretty much everything, a jack of all trades master of most.

[RebirthgotmebackintoDC]

I'm honestly kinda tired of several months now of people arguing about "Shiva v Bruce" especially now since the fact that it's taking anyone more than Cass to beat her shows that Tynion has buffed Shiva. And it's not like comic fighters are strangers to the idea of massively getting better; just look at all 4 graduated Robins Pre-Flashpoint.

As for the piece of the post I actually quoted, two things:

1. You think I'm a "her"? I have no intention of revealing my gender one way or another, but I am curious what gave you that idea.
2. If this Bruce was in the solo Batman title, getting everything done himself, he'd still be my favorite version. My liking of this version of the character mostly just comes down to the fact that he's a nice guy who actually seems to give a crap about his Bat"Family", and feels like an actual human being.

Also, everything Katana500 said in the post above this is accurate.

I agree with you that Shiva is been buffed, I don't think that's the issue most people have. It's more along the lines of why has she been buffed? To serve Cass's story. Tynion completely devalued all Bruce's previous feats against her and makes him a benchmark for Cass to surpass. She's going to save him and beat Shiva. Something Bruce should for sure do, not h2h, but with gadgets. And considering how many times he's been beat and compared to verbally this arc, I think Batman fans have a legitimate. complaint against what's going on here. Just like Cass fans would have a right to be angry is she was constantly beaten and humiliated in this arc while Batman saved everyone. Saying it's alright because it's Shiva in itself is not good enough, because he's done much better versus her in the past.

That being said, I also agree with that this is my favorite Batman. And I'm a huge Batman fan, so whoever telling you that you only like this version of Bruce because he loses is off base. I love Batman, while I don't think Morrison's run was the best, I do like Snyder's run the most (and he's pretty damn impressive in those books). But I enjoy the kinder Bruce. In the end feats shouldn't be what makes your character the favorite (hence why Tynion's Bruce is my favorite personality wise), but I don't think it's wrong to expect your character to perform well, not kinda sorta, there's always a reason, when his name is on the book. the book is called "Batman Detective Comics".

[Oberon]

I've read a fair few Tynion interviews, and while Tim Drake is his favorite character, I rather got the impression that Kate Kate is his second-favorite - so in Tim's absence it makes sense he'd focus on his second-favorite. Even when Tim returns, she's still one of his favorites, and will logically get plenty of panel time. Plus, she's co-leader: team-leaders are important.

Anyway, I don't she's been hogging the panels in any glorious sense lately at all. So far in this arc:

• tended to Cass after the first Shiva encounter
• gets KO'd without even a fight (Azrael, Batwing, and presumably Clayface at least went down in combat)
• gets stabbed while semi-conscious - largely used to distress her father (when the others were stabbed it wasn't to put on a show)
• gets tied-up along with two other team members (and they were naked because Shiva is a perv)
• gets rescued
• goes down again, almost straight away, without getting so much as a kick in
• as of the preview - getting rescued again

On top of that, there is that preview of an upcoming issue with Batwing carrying her to safety, plus Julia rescuing her in her own solo - if anything Batwoman is getting in a lot of practice as a damsel-in-distress lately. At this point it's possible she may be the most rescued character in the 'Tec Team.

Well, that really explains why Flamebird is in limbo. Not only is a Batwoman character/friend/family member not even close to a favorite, but essentially he's doing with Kate, what was done with Bette in the previous series; breaking her down to build her up again.

I really hoped to see Bette again after that months ago tease "I know what she has been up to - and soon so will you". yawn, tell me another story.

[RebirthgotmebackintoDC]

I'm honestly kinda tired of several months now of people arguing about "Shiva v Bruce" especially now since the fact that it's taking anyone more than Cass to beat her shows that Tynion has buffed Shiva. And it's not like comic fighters are strangers to the idea of massively getting better; just look at all 4 graduated Robins Pre-Flashpoint.

As for the piece of the post I actually quoted, two things:

1. You think I'm a "her"? I have no intention of revealing my gender one way or another, but I am curious what gave you that idea.
2. If this Bruce was in the solo Batman title, getting everything done himself, he'd still be my favorite version. My liking of this version of the character mostly just comes down to the fact that he's a nice guy who actually seems to give a crap about his Bat"Family", and feels like an actual human being.

Also, everything Katana500 said in the post above this is accurate.

Oh, and as a side note, did you read the latest Batman? THAT had awesome batman moments. Not the fight ( I actually didn't like it for the opposite reason I don't like Detectives. Bruce was TOO powerful here, fighting atlanteans and amazons straight up). But the conversation parts. If King continues this he may take my spot for best batman personality. I find it's really cool how each writer tackles different parts of Bruce. Snyder is all about what does Batman represent on a global scale (and his villains). King is all about an intropsective look at what drives Batman and Tynion is all about a social, inter-relational Batman. And it's all so good.

[Assam]

Oh, and as a side note, did you read the latest Batman? THAT had awesome batman moments. Not the fight ( I actually didn't like it for the opposite reason I don't like Detectives. Bruce was TOO powerful here, fighting atlanteans and amazons straight up). But the conversation parts. If King continues this he may take my spot for best batman personality. I find it's really cool how each writer tackles different parts of Bruce. Snyder is all about what does Batman represent on a global scale (and his villains). King is all about an intropsective look at what drives Batman and Tynion is all about a social, inter-relational Batman. And it's all so good.

I did read the newest issue, though only because of The Button crossover (I normally don't read Batman OR Flash.) I didn't care for it at all honestly. As you said, Bruce fighting Amazons and Atlanteans was ridiculous, Bruce saying he had "a son" pissed me off, and just in general, while the dialogue between Bruce and Thomas wasn't bad per say, it failed to made me feel anything. It wasn't helped by the fact that because of the poor pacing of the crossover, the final issue is likely gonna feel overstuffed.

[Caivu]

Well, that really explains why Flamebird is in limbo. Not only is a Batwoman character/friend/family member not even close to a favorite, but essentially he's doing with Kate, what was done with Bette in the previous series; breaking her down to build her up again.

I'm not seeing that at all. Not yet at least, and not in this series.

I really hoped to see Bette again after that months ago tease "I know what she has been up to - and soon so will you". yawn, tell me another story.

She'll be in the new series, but he never said when. And issue #1 did deliver on what he said.

[millernumber1]

She'll be in the new series, but he never said when. And issue #1 did deliver on what he said.

I also want to say that I believe the tweet from Tynion about Bette showing up was before the Batwoman solo had been officially greenlit, so he was still planning on having all her stuff happen in his title.