What if: Dragon Ball Z buu Saga

[Cody]

There is no-canon besides the original volumes of the manga, and no, not even Super when Toriyama's scripts are being made into two distinctly different stories in the manga and the anime and two arcs from each were already made into movies which ALSO completely contradict the Super manga & anime respectively in quite a few ways.

So not even remotely true. Kais scenes were picked by Akira, this has been common knowledge since day one. The only reason it hasn't been usable on here is due to some fighting about it. Super anime is 100% canon whether you like it or not, and it makes enough references to Kai that it too is canon. The movies were retconned out of existence thanks to it. The manga is a side project that neither Akira, nor Toei have anything to do with, while Akira works closely alongside the anime script(http://www.techtimes.com/articles/12...cript-make.htm), while he has nothing to do with the manga whatsoever, making it 100% non-canon.

[ekrolo2]

So not even remotely true. Kais scenes were picked by Akira, this has been common knowledge since day one. The only reason it hasn't been usable on here is due to some fighting about it. Super anime is 100% canon whether you like it or not, and it makes enough references to Kai that it too is canon. The movies were retconned out of existence thanks to it. The manga is a side project that neither Akira, nor Toei have anything to do with, while Akira works closely alongside the anime script(http://www.techtimes.com/articles/12...cript-make.htm), while he has nothing to do with the manga whatsoever, making it 100% non-canon.

The reason Kai was even made was because Shueisha tried to get Toriyama to make a new Dragon Ball thing and he flat out refused, hence they remade the original through Kai. Toriyama wasn't even interested in ever doing the series until Battle of Gods the film happened, a move for which he didn't write the script for originally and only came onto the project at a later date. He had fucking nothing to do with Kai's anything, much less deciding which scenes happen or not.

Toriyama is also heavily involved with the manga, he actually oversees everything Toyotaro does and gives him hints or story help and tells him yay or nay as evidenced by the interviews present here from a site that's actually about accurate DB info:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translatio...-book-version/
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translatio...super-anatomy/

[Len Ikari145]

Both the manga and the anime have Toriyama's involvement in terms of the scripting and story development. The manga is mostly used as an abridged and somewhat altered version to promote the anime. Regardless, both stories are crafted by Toriyama because he wanted the two to be distinct from one another. Considering that the Super anime is much further along the plot compared to the manga because Toriyama submits his scripts to Toei first, the anime takes precedence before the manga.

[ekrolo2]

Both the manga and the anime have Toriyama's involvement in terms of the scripting and story development. The manga is mostly used as an abridged and somewhat altered version to promote the anime. Regardless, both stories are crafted by Toriyama because he wanted the two to be distinct from one another. Considering that the Super anime is much further along the plot compared to the manga because Toriyama submits his scripts to Toei first, the anime takes precedence before the manga.

It definitely was an abridged version first but with the U6 arc onwards, it's a thing you can read on its own and enjoy since the page count got gradually increased. The anime also gets the scripts first because the anime is a weekly thing while the manga has a month in-between chapters.

I don't want to start a manga vs anime thing here but the jist of all this is that the situation with Super is really convoluted when you've got two versions of "Goku becomes 10 times stronger than Vegeta against Hit!" and they're both fine to Toriyama.

[Cody]

The reason Kai was even made was because Shueisha tried to get Toriyama to make a new Dragon Ball thing and he flat out refused, hence they remade the original through Kai. Toriyama wasn't even interested in ever doing the series until Battle of Gods the film happened, a move for which he didn't write the script for originally and only came onto the project at a later date. He had fucking nothing to do with Kai's anything, much less deciding which scenes happen or not.

Toriyama is also heavily involved with the manga, he actually oversees everything Toyotaro does and gives him hints or story help and tells him yay or nay as evidenced by the interviews present here from a site that's actually about accurate DB info:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translatio...-book-version/
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translatio...super-anatomy/

So you're just going to ignore the fact that Akira is more involved in the anime script than he is in the manga as my link explains, got it.

Overseeing the manga isn't the same as actively participating in the script for the anime. One clearly has far more involvement than the other, and as Super presents scenes that were in both Kai and Z, that makes it canon.

[ekrolo2]

So you're just going to ignore the fact that Akira is more involved in the anime script than he is in the manga as my link explains, got it.

Overseeing the manga isn't the same as actively participating in the script for the anime. One clearly has far more involvement than the other, and as Super presents scenes that were in both Kai and Z, that makes it canon.

And you're going to ignore the act Toriyama says he sends the anime scripts which they alter without him? From a place that's pretty much the definitive place for accurate DB related information?

Super also presents scenes that weren't at all in Kai like Yamcha's baseball **** AND Super also references Z only filler using characters who are only in the manga in the recent Saiyaman stuff. What does that say about this canon BS for you?

[Cody]

And you're going to ignore the act Toriyama says he sends the anime scripts which they alter without him? From a place that's pretty much the definitive place for accurate DB related information?

Super also presents scenes that weren't at all in Kai like Yamcha's baseball **** AND Super also references Z only filler using characters who are only in the manga in the recent Saiyaman stuff. What does that say about this canon BS for you?

Aside from the Baseball stuff(which Akira created btw: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/production/toriyama/#dbz )Those scenes were also in Kai, while many Z specific events are outright contradicted in in Super, thus making your argument naught. While none of your links ever contradict anything in my link whatsoever so right now you're still the only one ignoring sources. Especially when your own second link has Toriyama stating that he also supervises the anime. So he works more on the scripts for the anime than the manga(as my link says) and he supervises it as well(as he said in your second link). While he also admits in your second link that he doesn't really have to do much at all.

So now you're ignoring the own sources that you present.

[ekrolo2]

Aside from the Baseball stuff(which Akira created btw: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/production/toriyama/#dbz )Those scenes were also in Kai, while many Z specific events are outright contradicted in in Super, thus making your argument naught. While none of your links ever contradict anything in my link whatsoever so right now you're still the only one ignoring sources. Especially when your own second link has Toriyama stating that he also supervises the anime. So he works more on the scripts for the anime than the manga(as my link says) and he supervises it as well(as he said in your second link). While he also admits in your second link that he doesn't really have to do much at all.

So now you're ignoring the own sources that you present.

The Saiyaman stuff is combining things from Z filler and things exclusive to the manga and the Yamcha stuff wasn't in Kai which you say is just as canon as the 42 volumes of the manga despite the fact Toriyama, who in your version of reality, supervised Kai, didn't tell them to put the Yamcha filler in.

There's also the fact Kai blatantly starts out with the Bardock special with TV special, scumbag Bardock who dies having a vision of the future about his worthless, **** tier son growing up to kill Freeza. A scene that categorically cannot work with Dragon Ball Minus where Bardock cares about his kid and doesn't have visions of the future.

The 42 volumes of the manga that were written by Toriyama are what always counts, anything besides that is added fluff by other people or Toriyama himself.

[Cody]

The Saiyaman stuff is combining things from Z filler and things exclusive to the manga and the Yamcha stuff wasn't in Kai which you say is just as canon as the 42 volumes of the manga despite the fact Toriyama, who in your version of reality, supervised Kai, didn't tell them to put the Yamcha filler in.

There's also the fact Kai blatantly starts out with the Bardock special with TV special, scumbag Bardock who dies having a vision of the future about his worthless, **** tier son growing up to kill Freeza. A scene that categorically cannot work with Dragon Ball Minus where Bardock cares about his kid and doesn't have visions of the future.

The 42 volumes of the manga that were written by Toriyama are what always counts, anything besides that is added fluff by other people or Toriyama himself.

So you continue to ignore sources and begin to character bash. That will ll help your case. Kai was still supposed to be short, and the lack of a scene doesn't make it non-canon. Are you trying to argue that the original Z anime is canon now? For the Hell afterlife events really contradict what goes on in Super. While the baseball event was to make something for Yamcha since every other character that Goku first met seems to have something going on. The Bardock thing? Yeah; nothing in kai contradicts what is seen in minus either. Especially considering the flashback Frieza has in the manga, of Bardock confronting him in space(same state he was in during the Bardock special too). And many Shonen characters have some sort of "vision of things to come", doesn't mean the entirety of the Bardock special was canon, especially since there was a lack of telepathic communication between a dead Bardock and his son.

Anything added by Akira is canon. Otherwise you are now arguing that the Son Goku returns special is also non-canon despite it being referenced in the anime, and movies. As Kai is referenced in Super, along with some Z anime content, are now canon as well. As matter of fact; many of the first flashbacks were redone Kai scenes. This stopped when Buu saga scenes started to be referenced.

You're still ignoring the sources btw.

[ekrolo2]

So you continue to ignore sources and begin to character bash. That will ll help your case. Kai was still supposed to be short, and the lack of a scene doesn't make it non-canon. Are you trying to argue that the original Z anime is canon now? For the Hell afterlife events really contradict what goes on in Super. While the baseball event was to make something for Yamcha since every other character that Goku first met seems to have something going on. The Bardock thing? Yeah; nothing in kai contradicts what is seen in minus either. Especially considering the flashback Frieza has in the manga, of Bardock confronting him in space(same state he was in during the Bardock special too). And many Shonen characters have some sort of "vision of things to come", doesn't mean the entirety of the Bardock special was canon, especially since there was a lack of telepathic communication between a dead Bardock and his son.

Anything added by Akira is canon. Otherwise you are now arguing that the Son Goku returns special is also non-canon despite it being referenced in the anime, and movies. As Kai is referenced in Super, along with some Z anime content, are now canon as well. As matter of fact; many of the first flashbacks were redone Kai scenes. This stopped when Buu saga scenes started to be referenced.

You're still ignoring the sources btw.

I didn't ignore the Yamcha source, I was merely drawing attention to the fact that you talked about how Toriyama apparently went through every scene of Kai and decided what counts and what doesn't but didn't include the Yamcha thing despite him working on it yet its still "canon" for you. You also ignore the fact the Saiyaman stuff from both Z and Kai was completely changed between the various anime incarnations and the original manga AND that Super references Z filler but using manga only characters who never appear in Z and Kai.

A trend I'd tread carefully in because Toriyama worked on quite a bit of anime things that simply cannot categorically fit into main narrative like a lot of the original movie things that he was involved in. Is GT also canon because he designed a lot of the characters and several planets? Is Tree of Might? Is Broly? Are half the Gods of Destruction less canon than the others because Toyotaro solely designed some of them? Are a couple others half canon because Toriyama & Toyotaro collaborated on them?

And yes, the 2008 specials status is highly dubious because Super has entirely gone out of its way to completely ignore it ever happened. The movie referenced Tarble but Super didn't and hasn't in any way or form. The Minus thing also brings up the problem of Freeza knowing what Super Saiyan God is, implying Freeza knows Saiyan mythology better than Vegeta AND he never, fucking never mentions that ever, not even to himself on Namek in any version of events from the Freeza arc?

The original 42 volumes are what counts most, anything else is added fluff you can accept or avoid but if you want to see Dragon Ball at a point where it made the most sense in the most ways that count, you go by the manga events.

[Cody]

I didn't ignore the Yamcha source,

Was talking about all the sources thus far.

I was merely drawing attention to the fact that you talked about how Toriyama apparently went through every scene of Kai and decided what counts and what doesn't but didn't include the Yamcha thing despite him working on it yet its still "canon" for you.

It's not hard to get that it was added on even later. Maybe it was deemed irrelevant over something else? The fact that it was added later, means it is now canon.

You also ignore the fact the Saiyaman stuff from both Z and Kai was completely changed between the various anime incarnations and the original manga AND that Super references Z filler but using manga only characters who never appear in Z and Kai.

Which means retconned. The latest updated material always takes precedence. Super also makes use of Hercules disciples, all 3 were onl in Kai and Z. Same goes for Gregory.

A trend I'd tread carefully in because Toriyama worked on quite a bit of anime things that simply cannot categorically fit into main narrative like a lot of the original movie things that he was involved in. Is GT also canon because he designed a lot of the characters and several planets? Is Tree of Might? Is Broly? Are half the Gods of Destruction less canon than the others because Toyotaro solely designed some of them? Are a couple others half canon because Toriyama & Toyotaro collaborated on them?

Your comparison doesn't work when none of those had his direct supervision or a script he worked on alone. You are referencing movies that were written by completely different people that he ahd little to no involvement with, which is essentially what the DBS manga is really.

Are half the Gods of Destruction less canon than the others because Toyotaro solely designed some of them? Are a couple others half canon because Toriyama & Toyotaro collaborated on them?

As the DBS anime is canon; that means all Gods shown are canon. Again; you aren't really making an apts comparison.

And yes, the 2008 specials status is highly dubious because Super has entirely gone out of its way to completely ignore it ever happened. The movie referenced Tarble but Super didn't and hasn't in any way or form.

So even works written by the author himself are presented; they are still non-canon. Even the manga adaptions and the like; it's non-canon. Sorry; doesn't work that way. Until it's contradicted and retconned; it remains canon. If Akira created the script and/or supervises over something; its canon. Things written with either very little or no involvement of him whatsoever; it's clearly non-canon. As the Tarble special contradicts nothing in Super, and the anime special was done by Akira himself; there is nothing to suggest it be non-canon.

The Minus thing also brings up the problem of Freeza knowing what Super Saiyan God is, implying Freeza knows Saiyan mythology better than Vegeta AND he never, fucking never mentions that ever, not even to himself on Namek in any version of events from the Freeza arc?

He was dealing with the Super Saiyan title being thrown about from Vegeta, and then seeing it in person. Why would he ever mention SSG? That doesn't even make any sense. So now you're arguing that Minus isn't canon? Can't make up your mind or something buddy?

The original 42 volumes are what counts most, anything else is added fluff you can accept or avoid but if you want to see Dragon Ball at a point where it made the most sense in the most ways that count, you go by the manga events.

No; because now you are trying to make a fictional scifi/fantasy manga series make sense. Just because you are confused about somethings, doesn't make everything but the manga non-canon. Otherwise you may as well restrict the hell out of almost every Marvel and DC storyline, and argue that only the Golden age stuff "was canon".

And have you gone from saying; "DBS manga is canon!" to: "Everything but the original manga is non-canon!"?