Titans #11 (Lazarus Contract Part 1)

[BohemiaDrinker]

I like Abnett. I like Priest. I trust the team. Percy is the weakest link if nothing else.

Agreed, and even his Teen Titans have been decent.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I like Abnett. I like Priest. I trust the team. Percy is the weakest link if nothing else.

Okay. Some of us, though, expect more from the team, don't trust their record with these characters to date, and don't mind voicing that.

[Outside_85]

JL vs TT was about both Damian and Raven equally, a demon pretending to be Ra's was in it for 3 minutes near the end.

JC was not about Damian at all, he was barely even in it.
Slade's enmity with him was restricted to just one scene. The rest was about Slade fulfilling his contract to Blood.

Besides the original JC was a Deathstroke story anyway, it was his mission, his character arc and it gave us his origin. A sequel being a Deathstroke story seems in line to me.

The problem is that we have nothing to say that it wasn't real, that Ra's did not get the Lazarus Pits from Trigon... which to me actually makes a lot more sense than them just being natural phenomenon he just found. And even if that wasn't the case, the scene was still here, you had Damian fighting someone really significant while the rest of the Titans were fighting a generic nameless monster.

Really? Then why did we have to have an extended scene showing Deathstroke trying to kill Ra's and go on about how Deathstroke had a major bone to pick with Damian?

It was, and yet it wasn't. Deathstroke plays a major part in it, but the story itself is Terra's. It's her we follow as she is pulled under and crushed by the Wilson family tragedy, her own mental issues and the Titans.

I get that in current continuity Raven and Beast Boy would be too young and Cyborg started with the Justice League...

You say that... but it's not really grounds to say they couldn't have been there. Vic could have been lent out to the Titans, or showed up on his own. And Raven has wobbly time mechanics thats already made her older than she actually looks.

[darkseidpwns]

Again it was a demon claiming things in the final few minutes. It reverted back to its true form in defeat. Also not Damians fault he has an actual connection to a major villain and major demons inside him to confront. That Ra's was a manifestation of Damians demons. The others dont have inner demons.

There was just one scene between Damian and Slade talking about their past in the movie. That too wsd just them acknowledging their continuity. The rest of it had nothing to do with SOB.

[Outside_85]

Again it was a demon claiming things in the final few minutes. It reverted back to its true form in defeat. Also not Damians fault he has an actual connection to a major villain and major demons inside him to confront. That Ra's was a manifestation of Damians demons. The others dont have inner demons.

There was just one scene between Damian and Slade talking about their past in the movie. That too wsd just them acknowledging their continuity. The rest of it had nothing to do with SOB.

Terror of Trigon would disagree with you on that. The others have their own demons, Damian was just the only one that had to face his... even though there was no specific reason for his to appear.

And they could have done that with a single line of dialogue, but no, it had to be positioned as the main reason Slade was even there.

Imagine if the other characters had scenes like this? Suddenly we have to go through a part of Starfire's backstory so we could get some Blackfire onto the screen or Garfield having to watch the Doom Patrol getting blown up despite the connection to the ongoing events is minimal at best.

[Waterfall]

Agreed, and even his Teen Titans have been decent.

Yeah, it seems to be hitting the right notes so far. I think it's a solid team.

Okay. Some of us, though, expect more from the team, don't trust their record with these characters to date, and don't mind voicing that.

Your problems are mostly continuity issues. I like Abnett's take on Fab 5 and I'm glad Lilith is getting some well deserved spotlight. I'm not gonna cry if stuff like Wolfman's terrible take on Wally is thrown out of window.

I think Cyborg's eventual reintroducition will give Titans their final shape in modern era.

[darkseidpwns]

Terror of Trigon would disagree with you on that. The others have their own demons, Damian was just the only one that had to face his... even though there was no specific reason for his to appear.

And they could have done that with a single line of dialogue, but no, it had to be positioned as the main reason Slade was even there.

Imagine if the other characters had scenes like this? Suddenly we have to go through a part of Starfire's backstory so we could get some Blackfire onto the screen or Garfield having to watch the Doom Patrol getting blown up despite the connection to the ongoing events is minimal at best.

The others haven't left a mountain of skulls behind them, the others in that film dont have to choose between a heroic and villainous legacy nor are they associated with a major villain who in turn is associated with demonology.
Huh? it was a single line of dialogue in one scene. I wont pretend that Slade was majorly interesting compared to his comic counter part but he was nonetheless there for the contract. Why do you think he sold out Terra? Damian was just a bonus.

[Harpsikord]

I think the majority of you people are being overly critical and frankly, ridiculous. All this preview tells us is that the meeting between the Titans and Deathstroke is literally the same as it was, just with different characters. This also probably won't be the only flashback, and the current Teen Titans are likely going to be involved more than just NuWally being a bearer of the Speed Force, even if it's just that in another flashback we see Koriand'r with the team, and that's all that I could ask for. I won't even explicitly be disappointed if we don't get that. Another thing is that people are going into this expecting it to be a Judas Contract sequel because of the name, and I'm not sure why? Ever since this was solicited it's been solicited as it's own story. It's called the Lazarus Contract because Slade is trying to get his son back via speed force and Lazarus pit.

Either way, I think that this looks good. The art is better than expected and Abnett's Slade is really decent. I'm looking forward to this story as it gets going.

[dietrich]

I like Abnett. I like Priest. I trust the team. Percy is the weakest link if nothing else.

Yep and even that weak link is good.

I am really getting worried about this now. Because it seems to be heading down the road of simply being an adaptation of the original material, but done in such a way the creators can put the focus on the stuff they want to spotlight, which is not really what fans of the original material want to see and it screws up the impact of the original story.

Like this appears to focus on Deathstroke in the same way the two animated TT movies focused on Damian/Robin, the story will sort of remain in the same groove, but instead of the lead characters from the old story it's now someone else... and I am, sadly, kinda expecting some irritating tweaks and changes, like how Damian had to be Slade's drive in JC and Ra's had to be crowbared into Trigon's story.

I could have sworn TT: JC had little to do with Damian and the 1st TT was about Raven and Damian.

Looking forward to this. Dick, Kori, Damian and Deathstroke and hopeful some KF and Wally.

[Outside_85]

The others haven't left a mountain of skulls behind them, the others in that film dont have to choose between a heroic and villainous legacy nor are they associated with a major villain who in turn is associated with demonology.

Huh? it was a single line of dialogue in one scene. I wont pretend that Slade was majorly interesting compared to his comic counter part but he was nonetheless there for the contract. Why do you think he sold out Terra? Damian was just a bonus.

Blackfire has, considering (in comics) she sold out her people that were then invaded and then subjugated, plus you had all the torture she put Starfire through. Blue Beetle has to choose whenever or not he's the Reach's weapon or his own man. And Ra's was not demonically connected... before this very movie.

I may be misremembering something from Son of Batman... my mistake. To be honest, I think Deathstroke was very much like his comic counterpart in that regard, he wasn't interested in the contract or the Titans before things got personal. In comics it was Grants death, in the cartoon it was the presence of Damian, by then the money really didn't matter, but he doesn't let his clients know he has personal reasons to take it or make it cheaper. And much like in the comics, Terra was just a disposable tool to him... chances are good that even if everything had gone according to plan, then Terra would have been found face down in a ditch somewhere not long after.

[Lady Nightwing]

Having the flashback serve as his memory of the event, which possibly triggers him to go hunt down the Titans, just makes it a bit confusing.
Why would he be remembering them trying to save Grant if he was convinced they killed him?

IMO, the part where they try to revive Grant should have been saved for a later flashback to keep it in Slade's perspective.

Not to mention, there's no conviction in his motivation. Unlike in the original New Teen Titans.
If they were going to kill the Teen Titans, but his son dies instead... now they must pay..? What?
You were planning to kill them!

The original story managed to convey how Ravager wanted to kill the Titans and died, and how Slade pawned his own guilt onto the Titans and blamed them for Grant's death instead of taking the responsibilty.
This flashback tries to condense it all down into a few pages and it loses something in the process, I think.

I agree 100% with this. My enthusiasm for this crossover has waned a little. All these flaws are obvious and someone should have picked up on it

[darkseidpwns]

Blackfire has, considering (in comics) she sold out her people that were then invaded and then subjugated, plus you had all the torture she put Starfire through. Blue Beetle has to choose whenever or not he's the Reach's weapon or his own man. And Ra's was not demonically connected... before this very movie.

I may be misremembering something from Son of Batman... my mistake. To be honest, I think Deathstroke was very much like his comic counterpart in that regard, he wasn't interested in the contract or the Titans before things got personal. In comics it was Grants death, in the cartoon it was the presence of Damian, by then the money really didn't matter, but he doesn't let his clients know he has personal reasons to take it or make it cheaper. And much like in the comics, Terra was just a disposable tool to him... chances are good that even if everything had gone according to plan, then Terra would have been found face down in a ditch somewhere not long after.

Starfire doesn't have to choose between Blackfire and TT. The Reach control the Scarab not Jaimie, the Scarab has to choose between the humans and the reach. None of them have the iconography of Ra's. Besides neither of them were introduced in to this verse before hand.

Not literally but there has always been demonic undertones and sub text to him. Its literally in his name.

If it was about Damian Slade would have killed him and then ditched the contract instead of keeping him alive. Slade kept his deal to the very end and it meant keeping Damian alive.

[Outside_85]

Starfire doesn't have to choose between Blackfire and TT. The Reach control the Scarab not Jaimie, the Scarab has to choose between the humans and the reach. None of them have the iconography of Ra's. Besides neither of them were introduced in to this verse before hand.

Not literally but there has always been demonic undertones and sub text to him. Its literally in his name.

If it was about Damian Slade would have killed him and then ditched the contract instead of keeping him alive. Slade kept his deal to the very end and it meant keeping Damian alive.

No, but personally struggling between good and evil is not the only kinds of personal demons one can have. Like returning to ToT, Wally's was his repressed desires to be with Raven, Cyborg had his doubts whenever he was actually still human, Garfield was at war with the animal inside and so on. Likewise Jamie has problems with controlling his scarab and it's driven a wedge between him and his parents, he can't stay in their house and he cant get the scarab off his back.
As for iconography... I am not really sure Ra's has any, since he is a shadow to the world. It's only with Damian, Nyssa and Talia he looms over in this manner.

And it's all smoke and mirrors, its something he's cast himself as in order to be intimidating and build his legend. How do you explain the immortal ruler of a league of murderers, he must be a demon of some sort... it's very much like how Raven ended Brother Blood in the movie where he calls them all devils and she goes 'want to see a real one?'

It was about Damian... but because Slade does not fail his contracts, he goes through with them, and this time he could do so while knowing he'd see Damian die anyways... or just finish him off himself once he had used up his value.

[darkseidpwns]

No but its the theme that ties both Raven and Damian together. You might as well also complain about her too. Blackfire and Reach unlike Ra's have not been introduced in to this universe.
The demon thing is still part of his al Ghul lore, fake or real, its there. The last issue of All Star Batman was about it.
The objective was the contract not Damian. Damian and Slade had one conversation about their past as a reference to the shared continuity and thats it.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Your problems are mostly continuity issues. I like Abnett's take on Fab 5 and I'm glad Lilith is getting some well deserved spotlight. I'm not gonna cry if stuff like Wolfman's terrible take on Wally is thrown out of window.

Weak take? Wolfman's Titans was one of the most definitive runs on any set of characters in the history of the DCU. Abnett's Titans wishes it could hold a candle to Wolfman's run. So far, Abnett has proven that he simply would like to scavenge on the remains of one of the most famous runs in comic book history, without actually attempting to provide anything original or creative and only trying to push his take on the Titans.

And, yes, my issues with this run are continuity issues. That doesn't make them any less valid, especially when the erasure of the NTT was (and apparently continues to be) one of the most glaring faults that many people had with the New 52.

I think Cyborg's eventual reintroducition will give Titans their final shape in modern era.

If Abnett is intent on pushing his lame Titans Hunt Titans, then you have no room to say Cyborg will be reintroduced as a Titan at all. If Abnett and DC are intent on erasing his past with the team, there's no guarantee that he'll have any sort of future with them.