Secret Empire

[jackolover]

This thread discusses any aspect of the subject anyone wishes to discuss. Here is mine.

I'll give the thrust of one aspect of an article I am writing on Civil War 2006. It is this : Steve Rogers felt he should have been the one to be the moral compass of the super hero community, not Tony Stark during CW.

This goes back a thread Bendis retconned right at the start of Bendis forming the Illuminati under Tony Stark, in which Tony didn't invite Steve Rogers, after the Kree-Skrull War, even though Steve had returned from suspended animation from before. Why didn't Tony invite Steve to the Illuminati? Because Tony wanted to be the moral compass Steve was, when Tony formed the Avengers when Steve wasn't there, but Steve took over not long after. And that peeved Tony that Steve took over Tony's team. (Let's not look into Kirbys character superceding Stan Lees character).

So, when the Illuminati met to discuss Civil War, Steve was not going to be there, because it was Tony's show, and he wanted to be the moral compass to run the super humans. When Steve was met with this, Steve got extraordinarily peeved that Tony was taking control, when Steve was obviously the better man. (This also conveniently played well into Skrull plans to divide the super human community, but let's not try to see too much in there).

So, time goes on, and on, and on and now we are in Secret Empire and guess what? Steve Rogers has got his wish. He is now the moral compass of the super humans he was never allowed to be in Civil War. Spooky it may be, but Steve eventually got his way, but instead of it being under freedom circumstances, he is doing it under a trance by the Kobik inversion.

[Michael Watkins]

I wish that there were solo or mini-series for the individual Hydravengers; as there were during Dark Reign. I'd also settle for a one-shot. I just have a feeling that there's comedy gold in Taskmaster and Ant-Man's viewpoint, in all of this. they don't strike me as Hydra true believers.

[Inversed]

I wish that there were solo or mini-series for the individual Hydravengers; as there were during Dark Reign. I'd also settle for a one-shot. I just have a feeling that there's comedy gold in Taskmaster and Ant-Man's viewpoint, in all of this. they don't strike me as Hydra true believers.

I second this! Just a 4-5 issue mini-series focusing on what this team does, it's a pretty awesome lineup and provides so much potential. Like you mentioned, Taskmaster and Black Ant can work off each other really well, I especially wanna see what Superior Octopus' dynamic with these characters would be. Also I'd allow us to get a glimpse of how mind controlled Scarlet Witch and Vision act, hints at Odinson's motives, and of course a confused Deadpool for the fun!

[Witchfan]

I read and loved the Vision, Scarlet Witch, and Unworthy Thor series. Now Nick Spencer has these three stuck into Hydra's Avengers. Does Spencer plan to advance the narratives of these three series, or is he just going to ignore them and screw the characters over?

[jackolover]

I wish that there were solo or mini-series for the individual Hydravengers; as there were during Dark Reign. I'd also settle for a one-shot. I just have a feeling that there's comedy gold in Taskmaster and Ant-Man's viewpoint, in all of this. they don't strike me as Hydra true believers.

That's a great idea. This Event has room for expanding on some of the players that emerge out of this situation, so why not let them shine in the light like this?

[Michael Watkins]

they could play off of the original Scarlet Witch and Vision solo series; have the two new Avengers get a house out in the suburbs, while being living symbols of a Hydra America. and bring over the creative team from Vision's current series (is that still running?). to be honest, I have no idea what is going on in Vision's life. last time I checked in, Victor was stopping by their house. is Viv still around? I wonder what she thinks about it. maybe Cap should have recruited her, instead. and it's be great to see Baron Mordo show up as a recurring character; maybe filling in for Agatha Harkness as Wanda's mentor.

[Michael Watkins]

I read and loved the Vision, Scarlet Witch, and Unworthy Thor series. Now Nick Spencer has these three stuck into Hydra's Avengers. Does Spencer plan to advance the narratives of these three series, or is he just going to ignore them and screw the characters over?

are they stuck? i'd say that all 3 have become significantly more important. and i'm saying this as someone who reads Scarlet Witch and Unworthy Thor. if this gets Wanda back on a team, i'm all for it. the Emerald Warlock can wait, imo. best thing about a character being involved in an event is that you get to see them drawn by several artists. it's what I used to hate about my favorites being excluded from company wide events.

[FantasticVision]

they could play off of the original Scarlet Witch and Vision solo series; have the two new Avengers get a house out in the suburbs, while being living symbols of a Hydra America. and bring over the creative team from Vision's current series (is that still running?). to be honest, I have no idea what is going on in Vision's life. last time I checked in, Victor was stopping by their house. is Viv still around? I wonder what she thinks about it. maybe Cap should have recruited her, instead. and it's be great to see Baron Mordo show up as a recurring character; maybe filling in for Agatha Harkness as Wanda's mentor.

His series ended like six months ago - and the creative team went DC exclusive.

Though Viv is still around and was shown in the shot where Wanda and Vision got corrupted, so I don't think they're going to just ignore her reaction. I'm fairly sure she'll have her emotions back by the time Secret Empire is supposed to be set, so I'm hoping there's some focus on her.

She couldn't have been recruited with him because Marvel's trying to push how much better the younger generation are and she's a member of the Champions, but I'd like to see how she's dealing with it - maybe she'll cry? Her continuing the family tradition of breaking large tables into splinters due to desperate rage would be a nice callback, I think. Ooh, maybe she'll break the brainwashing on him, and you could repurpose 'I too shall be saved by love'?

[Huntsman Spider]

His series ended like six months ago - and the creative team went DC exclusive.

Though Viv is still around and was shown in the shot where Wanda and Vision got corrupted, so I don't think they're going to just ignore her reaction. I'm fairly sure she'll have her emotions back by the time Secret Empire is supposed to be set, so I'm hoping there's some focus on her.

She couldn't have been recruited with him because Marvel's trying to push how much better the younger generation are and she's a member of the Champions, but I'd like to see how she's dealing with it - maybe she'll cry? Her continuing the family tradition of breaking large tables into splinters due to desperate rage would be a nice callback, I think. Ooh, maybe she'll break the brainwashing on him, and you could repurpose 'I too shall be saved by love'?

I think the issue there is that the younger generation of heroes is only "better" in the sense that they haven't been around long enough to get worn down by the futility of constantly trying to save the world --- or more accurately, keep the world in one piece while humanity and society as a whole continue to deteriorate --- against bigger and bigger threats and menaces and working alongside people they don't necessarily trust or like but have to at least hope that a common enemy or cause will be enough to keep them on the same page. In their eyes, the older generation has simply settled for keeping the status quo as intact as possible, even if it's a status quo that is increasingly untenable for the world at large, and that's actually something HYDRA-Cap would agree with them on, that most superheroes have settled for preserving a status quo that is irredeemably flawed and corrupt, that fails to serve the real needs of the people they purportedly protect, and thus deserves to be toppled for the greater good. Of course, HYDRA-Cap takes it to a much greater and much darker extreme in that he sees superheroes in and of themselves as a big part of the problem and perhaps even the cause and thus believes they should be at best controlled or at worst eliminated if they won't get with the program and serve the needs of humanity at large as opposed to their own pride and ego and ambition.

Both HYDRA-Cap and the Champions see the superhero community as having lost touch with its ideals and with the public it seeks to protect, but where the Champions wish to reconnect with those ideals and with the people at large, HYDRA-Cap sees the superhero community as the main obstacle that has to be removed for the sake of the better world he wants to create. Come to think of it, they both want people to be able to believe in and trust their heroes again, but while the Champions believe that's possible by "acting like heroes again," HYDRA-Cap believes instead that the very idea of a superhero was built on a long-decaying foundation that needs to be replaced with something stronger and firmer that can actually give the people the security and protection they need. The major difference, as you may be able to glean from reading this, is that while HYDRA-Cap and the Champions are both deeply dissatisfied with the existing status quo and want it changed, the Champions want to bring about that change through super-powered activism that inspires ordinary people to rise up and demand or enact reform, whereas HYDRA-Cap wants to bring about that change through a radical revolt that topples all the decayed and failed institutions, especially superheroes, that no longer serve the well-being of the public.

As of Secret Empire #0-1, we know whose method is succeeding, at least for the moment.

[Michael Watkins]

His series ended like six months ago - and the creative team went DC exclusive.

Though Viv is still around and was shown in the shot where Wanda and Vision got corrupted, so I don't think they're going to just ignore her reaction. I'm fairly sure she'll have her emotions back by the time Secret Empire is supposed to be set, so I'm hoping there's some focus on her.

She couldn't have been recruited with him because Marvel's trying to push how much better the younger generation are and she's a member of the Champions, but I'd like to see how she's dealing with it - maybe she'll cry? Her continuing the family tradition of breaking large tables into splinters due to desperate rage would be a nice callback, I think. Ooh, maybe she'll break the brainwashing on him, and you could repurpose 'I too shall be saved by love'?

I'm pretty sure that I was talking about Vivian, then; Vision's wife (the homicidal one).

[jackolover]

I think the issue there is that the younger generation of heroes is only "better" in the sense that they haven't been around long enough to get worn down by the futility of constantly trying to save the world --- or more accurately, keep the world in one piece while humanity and society as a whole continue to deteriorate --- against bigger and bigger threats and menaces and working alongside people they don't necessarily trust or like but have to at least hope that a common enemy or cause will be enough to keep them on the same page. In their eyes, the older generation has simply settled for keeping the status quo as intact as possible, even if it's a status quo that is increasingly untenable for the world at large, and that's actually something HYDRA-Cap would agree with them on, that most superheroes have settled for preserving a status quo that is irredeemably flawed and corrupt, that fails to serve the real needs of the people they purportedly protect, and thus deserves to be toppled for the greater good. Of course, HYDRA-Cap takes it to a much greater and much darker extreme in that he sees superheroes in and of themselves as a big part of the problem and perhaps even the cause and thus believes they should be at best controlled or at worst eliminated if they won't get with the program and serve the needs of humanity at large as opposed to their own pride and ego and ambition.

Both HYDRA-Cap and the Champions see the superhero community as having lost touch with its ideals and with the public it seeks to protect, but where the Champions wish to reconnect with those ideals and with the people at large, HYDRA-Cap sees the superhero community as the main obstacle that has to be removed for the sake of the better world he wants to create. Come to think of it, they both want people to be able to believe in and trust their heroes again, but while the Champions believe that's possible by "acting like heroes again," HYDRA-Cap believes instead that the very idea of a superhero was built on a long-decaying foundation that needs to be replaced with something stronger and firmer that can actually give the people the security and protection they need. The major difference, as you may be able to glean from reading this, is that while HYDRA-Cap and the Champions are both deeply dissatisfied with the existing status quo and want it changed, the Champions want to bring about that change through super-powered activism that inspires ordinary people to rise up and demand or enact reform, whereas HYDRA-Cap wants to bring about that change through a radical revolt that topples all the decayed and failed institutions, especially superheroes, that no longer serve the well-being of the public.

As of Secret Empire #0-1, we know whose method is succeeding, at least for the moment.

I wonder if Marvel could do a year without the older super heroes, and see how the younger generation handles it? After all, that's what the Silver Age was all about : remove the old Stark, Richards, Storm, Parker fathers and just let the young new heroes sort themselves out - no training wheels. It was brutal, and it was frustrating, but they had to work it out themselves. The Champions would have to do that without the older heroes. Same with the young America leading the Ultimates 2.

[gurkle]

I wonder if Marvel could do a year without the older super heroes, and see how the younger generation handles it? After all, that's what the Silver Age was all about : remove the old Stark, Richards, Storm, Parker fathers and just let the young new heroes sort themselves out - no training wheels. It was brutal, and it was frustrating, but they had to work it out themselves. The Champions would have to do that without the older heroes. Same with the young America leading the Ultimates 2.

I've wanted them to do a Heroes Reborn 2 that would split the classic heroes and the legacy heroes into different dimensions, forcing the legacy heroes to figure it out for themselves, while the classic heroes had to figure out how to deal with a world in which there are no younger heroes to help them adjust. That way you could have two heroes with the same title, but each one working alone in their world, like Miles was Spider-Man in his continuity.

Of course this can never happen because it wouldn't sell, but the legacy heroes can't really catch on unless they have the full weight of the name behind them. In theory there can be lots of people with the same title but in practice there's always one character who is the "real one." Carol can be Captain Marvel because we actually believe Mar-Vell might stay dead, and Kamala can be Ms. Marvel because Carol isn't taking the name back. The other legacies don't have that commitment.

[jackolover]

I've wanted them to do a Heroes Reborn 2 that would split the classic heroes and the legacy heroes into different dimensions, forcing the legacy heroes to figure it out for themselves, while the classic heroes had to figure out how to deal with a world in which there are no younger heroes to help them adjust. That way you could have two heroes with the same title, but each one working alone in their world, like Miles was Spider-Man in his continuity.

Of course this can never happen because it wouldn't sell, but the legacy heroes can't really catch on unless they have the full weight of the name behind them. In theory there can be lots of people with the same title but in practice there's always one character who is the "real one." Carol can be Captain Marvel because we actually believe Mar-Vell might stay dead, and Kamala can be Ms. Marvel because Carol isn't taking the name back. The other legacies don't have that commitment.

Yes. It's probably off subject to Secret Empire, but I would consider it.

[Michael Watkins]

make your guesses now. I'm convinced that Kobik and Elisa Sinclair are the same entity. I have no proof. but it's what makes sense to me. she's pushing Steve to find that cube for a reason. maybe it's the part of her that's missing.

[Michael Watkins]

on another note, I wonder what Sin and Crossbones are up to. they were conspicuously absent in the free comic book day issue and part 1 of Secret Empire. they were, presumably, essential to Steve's plan.