Wonder Woman Movie Discussion & SPOILERS

[Korath]

But I agree, perfectly and intentionally wonderfully and exactly vague enough. But the clay origin WAS/IS her true origin...minus an unfortunate 5 yr blip. And I believe it still is. I've sen the ,ovie 6 times, and I have paid so so so close attention to this scene...and IT. IS. VAGUE. haha

Not for me. I won't go into great details, but Azzarello removing it was probably the better thing he did to Diana's mythos. it is a terrible idea to pretend that for one to be perfect, he/she has to be totally detached from the other gender even from her birth and conception. At least, I find it abhorrent and absolutely contrary to what I see feminism for.

[RealWonderman]

Not for me. I won't go into great details, but Azzarello removing it was probably the better thing he did to Diana's mythos. it is a terrible idea to pretend that for one to be perfect, he/she has to be totally detached from the other gender even from her birth and conception. At least, I find it abhorrent and absolutely contrary to what I see feminism for.

I don't think this was ever the reason why. I think this extra meaning was attached later. The origin was originally inspired by the Pygmalion and Galatea myth.

So, I dislike the change to her origin because it's not true...nothing to do with perfection...it's just not Wonder Woman's origin.

It would be like if they decided Superman came on a covered wagon from Canada, or Batman's dog was killed instead of his parents.

[Vanguard-01]

Not for me. I won't go into great details, but Azzarello removing it was probably the better thing he did to Diana's mythos. it is a terrible idea to pretend that for one to be perfect, he/she has to be totally detached from the other gender even from her birth and conception. At least, I find it abhorrent and absolutely contrary to what I see feminism for.

Your logic falls apart at the moment where you assume that Diana was EVER intended to be considered "perfect." That was never the goal of the character. She's not "perfect" and whenever I see someone claiming that she is, or is supposed to be, I'm forced to conclude that he or she actually knows next to nothing about the character.

[RealWonderman]

I don't think this was ever the reason why. I think this extra meaning was attached later. The origin was originally inspired by the Pygmalion and Galatea myth.

So, I dislike the change to her origin because it's not true...nothing to do with perfection...it's just not Wonder Woman's origin.

It would be like if they decided Superman came on a covered wagon from Canada, or Batman's dog was killed instead of his parents.

(But why would a dog be going to the theater, you ask? Because BATMAN.)

[Gaelforce]

Your logic falls apart at the moment where you assume that Diana was EVER intended to be considered "perfect." That was never the goal of the character. She's not "perfect" and whenever I see someone claiming that she is, or is supposed to be, I'm forced to conclude that he or she actually knows next to nothing about the character.

More to the point, we have a number of 'perfect' heroes (Superman, Captain America) who did come from a mother and a father (as well as adopted parents), so to say that anyone tried to state that perfection *only* comes from a woman without the need for a man in the process is not a valid argument to begin with.

Father figures are rife throughout comicdom, and 'perfect' heroes have been the result. To say that a single character in the 75 years of comics might have been perfect without a father..just *one*...is a very powerful statement. It was meant to balance the scales - many male driven heroes with male role models offset by a single woman without any male influence.

[Pinsir]

It is not my ideal version. It's been the version since the Perez reboot over 30 years ago. Those are the core powers she has had since!

But the Perez reboot does not reflect the whole of Wonder Woman fandom. Some people like Wonder Woman from the Golden Age comics (Does not fly), the Superfiends and Lynda Carter tv show (Does not fly), the Perez reboot (flies), the Justice League tv show (flies), the 2009 animated film (does not fly) and the Azzarello reboot (can fly, but never really does).

[brettc1]

Having discussed Ludendorff and Poison, lets take a moment to delve into what we know of Steve Trevor.

Not much, on the surface, as you might expect from a spy. But there are a few clues.

We know he had a father who helped raise him, who was likely also in the military and raised some hell. He seems to know how to ride a horse pretty well, so we might surmise he had a country upbringing instead of in the city. Considering he carries his father's watch with him we can assume they were pretty close

A little more is revealed in his conversation on the boat with Diana where he talks about couples loving each other til death, but then tells he it rarely happens. A comment like that could indicate his father and mother [who he never speaks of at all] separated at some point, and that Steve was then raised by his dad. Further evidence for this comes from his scene dancing with Diana in the snow. He says people not at war "get married, have babies and grow old together" but also that he has no idea what that is like. Again, that hints that his own parents did not have a happily ever after for him to draw on.

For all his charm around Maru at the Gala, he never comes across as particularly suave with Diana. Quite the opposite in fact, as demonstrated by his old fashioned chivalry and not a little nervousness on the boat about sleeping next to her. He even covers up [eventually] when she is with him in the bathing cave. While he is quite comfortable in his disguise with Maru, he is often flustered around Diana, and has difficulty opening up to her. Again, at the risk of getting overly Freudian, it might show he did not have a close relationship with his mother or that he felt abandoned by her.

Finally, I think we can assume by the time of the movie Steve's father has passed away. He gives his dad's watch to Diana, but never asks her to return it to him, or even to get a final message to his father. Considering his dad obviously had a pretty strong influence on him, I would think that were he still alive Steve would at least have wanted her to get word to him of his son's death. So it seems that Steve, like Diana, is alone in the world... until they all too briefly find each other.

[BiteTheBullet]

But the Perez reboot does not reflect the whole of Wonder Woman fandom. Some people like Wonder Woman from the Golden Age comics (Does not fly), the Superfiends and Lynda Carter tv show (Does not fly), the Perez reboot (flies), the Justice League tv show (flies), the 2009 animated film (does not fly) and the Azzarello reboot (can fly, but never really does).

I stated my ideal as you call it, or in my opinion core powers as of the last 30 years. I was not implying anything other than that. The TV show was great, but special effects for TV budgets in those days would have made flying look silly. And to that point, she was only gliding on air currents in the comics in the same time frame as the TV show which still would have looked bad special effects wise.

Never liked the Azz run, but she did fly fairly consistently after she got the feather by Hermes in issue 11 or 12.

[MikaelNovasun]

I don't think this was ever the reason why. I think this extra meaning was attached later. The origin was originally inspired by the Pygmalion and Galatea myth.

So, I dislike the change to her origin because it's not true...nothing to do with perfection...it's just not Wonder Woman's origin.

It would be like if they decided Superman came on a covered wagon from Canada, or Batman's dog was killed instead of his parents.

Really? Those are your examples? That is some extreme exaggeration. Whether it is the clay origin or goddess/demi-goddess origin, divinity still had a hand in her "birth/conception".

Also keep in mind the Amazons in the movie are not entirely human. They are some form of divine being created by Zeus as a bridge between humans and the gods. They were originally created as a means to show humans knowledge, beauty, art, and turn away from the ways of war according to Hippolyta and Diana.

Edit: I wonder if Poseidon had a hand in their(amazons) origin since they are coming from the sea in the one painting.

[brettc1]

On IMDB, a comic book superhero movie where the average for female viewers is significantly higher than for males across all age groups, but without the benefit of Chris Hemsworth's arms LOL

The average male review is 8.1, compare to the average for female reviews is at 8.6

[RealWonderman]

Having discussed Ludendorff and Poison, lets take a moment to delve into what we know of Steve Trevor.

Not much, on the surface, as you might expect from a spy. But there are a few clues.

We know he had a father who helped raise him, who was likely also in the military and raised some hell. He seems to know how to ride a horse pretty well, so we might surmise he had a country upbringing instead of in the city. Considering he carries his father's watch with him we can assume they were pretty close

A little more is revealed in his conversation on the boat with Diana where he talks about couples loving each other til death, but then tells he it rarely happens. A comment like that could indicate his father and mother [who he never speaks of at all] separated at some point, and that Steve was then raised by his dad. Further evidence for this comes from his scene dancing with Diana in the snow. He says people not at war "get married, have babies and grow old together" but also that he has no idea what that is like. Again, that hints that his own parents did not have a happily ever after for him to draw on.

For all his charm around Maru at the Gala, he never comes across as particularly suave with Diana. Quite the opposite in fact, as demonstrated by his old fashioned chivalry and not a little nervousness on the boat about sleeping next to her. He even covers up [eventually] when she is with him in the bathing cave. While he is quite comfortable in his disguise with Maru, he is often flustered around Diana, and has difficulty opening up to her. Again, at the risk of getting overly Freudian, it might show he did not have a close relationship with his mother or that he felt abandoned by her.

Finally, I think we can assume by the time of the movie Steve's father has passed away. He gives his dad's watch to Diana, but never asks her to return it to him, or even to get a final message to his father. Considering his dad obviously had a pretty strong influence on him, I would think that were he still alive Steve would at least have wanted her to get word to him of his son's death. So it seems that Steve, like Diana, is alone in the world... until they all too briefly find each other.

NICE!! This also means that Diana was raised by a single Mother, and Steve was raised by a single Father...PARALLEL!!!

[RealWonderman]

Really? Those are your examples? That is some extreme exaggeration. Whether it is the clay origin or goddess/demi-goddess origin, divinity still had a hand in her "birth/conception".

Also keep in mind the Amazons in the movie are not entirely human. They are some form of divine being created by Zeus as a bridge between humans and the gods. They were originally created as a means to show humans knowledge, beauty, art, and turn away from the ways of war according to Hippolyta and Diana.

Edit: I wonder if Poseidon had a hand in their(amazons) origin since they are coming from the sea in the one painting.

It was meant to be hyperbolic, and a joke...see subsequent post re: Batman and Dog...

But now that you bring it up, NO, I don't think it's an exaggeration. What could be more different than changing "a clay statue brought to life by the gods" to "her parents did the brown chicken brown cow, and BAM here comes baby?"

I think the analogies are fair.

[RealWonderman]

Post deleted due to several errors in the article

[Pinsir]

I stated my ideal as you call it, or in my opinion core powers as of the last 30 years. I was not implying anything other than that. The TV show was great, but special effects for TV budgets in those days would have made flying look silly. And to that point, she was only gliding on air currents in the comics in the same time frame as the TV show which still would have looked bad special effects wise.

Never liked the Azz run, but she did fly fairly consistently after she got the feather by Hermes in issue 11 or 12.

She didn't glide on air that often either though and in one issue (Wonder Woman Vol 1 #251, I believe) she does comment that she barely uses the technique because of her invisible plane and she is rusty at it. So although it did appear frequently in Silver Age during the teen Diana moments, it was a relic by the time of the Bronze Age. Gliding was a periphery power, just as flight currently is.

I think the more important question though is this; why did the creators choose not to include this power? The obvious answer is that it would fundamentally disrupt the story as she could just fly off to Germany. Of course she could have learned about this power during the final fight to avert this, but she didn't really need that ability to win. What exactly would giving her flight add?

[BiteTheBullet]

She didn't glide on air that often either though and in one issue (Wonder Woman Vol 1 #251, I believe) she does comment that she barely uses the technique because of her invisible plane and she is rusty at it. So although it did appear frequently in Silver Age during the teen Diana moments, it was a relic by the time of the Bronze Age. Gliding was a periphery power, just as flight currently is.

I think the more important question though is this; why did the creators choose not to include this power? The obvious answer is that it would fundamentally disrupt the story as she could just fly off to Germany. Of course she could have learned about this power during the final fight to avert this, but she didn't really need that ability to win. What exactly would giving her flight add?

I didn't even care if she was 'fully realized' at the beginning of the movie because it was her origin and I heard that she would be learning her powers and gaining them throughout the movie. So....the fact that she could not fly early on wasn't important to me and therefore no disruption to the story.

As far as giving her flight would add.....the fact is that it is a power of hers for the last 30+ years. No other reason than that and that I expect her to have it. If she doesn't, they nerfed/depowered her from the version we have seen for 30+ years. I don't want to see a depowered Diana, not for my favorite superhero. If you don't see it that way, then you have your version of your perfect Wonder Woman on the big screen. Just don't tell others that we have to like it or look for excuses on why she needs or doesn't need them.

If you don't want her to fly, then just say so. Just tell me that you see no reason for Diana to have this ability in which she has been depicted to have for over 30+ years with few exceptions, the one being her animated movie. Even in the DC superhero girls she flys.