Wonder Woman Movie Discussion & SPOILERS

[brettc1]

My issue is not with the bare idea of Ares being WW's nemesis. I myself gave a reason to justify this. But the movie-version has really dubious reasons for wanting to end mankind, and that's a separate issue.

So he says he's the "god of truth," but the only connotation it has in that scene is that he can reveal the ugly truth about humankind: that it's easy to gull us into wasting our energies in conflict. That's still not a very profound reason for wanting to do away with humankind. Why does he want the world to revert to a bucolic paradise w/o people? What's he going to do once that's the state of things and he's the only god of that world, assuming he doesn't succeed in tempting the God-Killer to join him? These are questions the writers didn't ask because they guessed-- correctly-- that the audience would get caught up in Diana's struggle and not get too exercised about Ares' motives for becoming the God of Get These Kids Off My Lawn.

I don't think the flaw spoils the film, BTW. But it is a flaw IMO, and it wouldn't have been that tough to correct.

Ok first, that's hilarious!

Moving on, Hippolyta sets up Ares motivation by telling us when humans were created he was jealous of them. As I mentioned upthread, he is rather similar to some representations of Satan, who resent God for creating a creature that is loved more than he are. It's also not dissimilar to Loki in the MCU, whose primary motivation is to outdo Thor.

And like Loki in the first Thor movie, his strategy is to lure the focus of his jealousy into revealing the worst side of their nature. Ares mentions that he wanted the other gods to see humans for what they were. So his original plan seems to have been that through the ugliness of war he will turn the gods against humankind. When They create the Amazons instead, it ends in a battle where Ares is the last Olympian standing but to weak to commit the genocide he craves. All he can manage now is to play the role of evil tempter.

[Punisher007]

I mean, I don't know what else they could have done to "explain" his motives. He makes it really clear why he feels the way that he does, and Hippolyta and Antiope also mention it.

So I'm not getting what more is needed? To spend 20 minutes explain the "why" of the "why" of the "why." Because then you're really pushing it.

[Jim Kelly]

Diana has been living in a paradise among her peaceful and loving sisters; Ares has been condemned to live in the midst of mankind (whom he never liked in the first place) for centuries. It's made him a sad and bitter old man. Mr. Wilson indeed.

[Punisher007]

He and Diana have polar opposite arcs. Diana sees/comes to understand that humanity is capable of both great evil AND great good. So she realizes that it's worth saving/fighting for. Ares, only sees the evil that humans sometimes do, and how (in his mind) they've ruined the world in the process. So he believes that they need to be annihilated in order for things to be better.

Again, it seems pretty clear (and no one that I talked to afterwards had trouble understanding his motives). And it fits the themes of the film as well.

[Last Son of Krypton]

Below two paintings cut from Hippolyta's "history lesson" to Diana. Here all the original paintings: https://www.comicbookmovie.com/wonde...mazons-a151853

WALK WITH MANKIND:



BETRAYED:

[RealWonderman]

Gotta ask some of the older fans here something seeing as I've only been reading comics for a few years. How does it feel to see Diana completely blow up in the mainstream like this? Her movie is about to outgross a Batman/Superman flick domestically. It has to be incredibly gratifying

Yes. Since the night I saw Superman: The Movie in 1978, I have waited (literally) every single day of my life for Wonder Woman: The Movie. So, since I was three years old. Every. Day.

After I saw it, I knew this was coming. I had to prepare myself to share her with the World-at-Large. It wasn't the easiest thing in the world, to be honest.

BUT I'll probably never have to answer this one question again: "So, what's your deal with Wonder Woman?"

And for me, I will always know she was mine, first and foremost.

[RealWonderman]

My issue is not with the bare idea of Ares being WW's nemesis. I myself gave a reason to justify this. But the movie-version has really dubious reasons for wanting to end mankind, and that's a separate issue.

So he says he's the "god of truth," but the only connotation it has in that scene is that he can reveal the ugly truth about humankind: that it's easy to gull us into wasting our energies in conflict. That's still not a very profound reason for wanting to do away with humankind. Why does he want the world to revert to a bucolic paradise w/o people? What's he going to do once that's the state of things and he's the only god of that world, assuming he doesn't succeed in tempting the God-Killer to join him? These are questions the writers didn't ask because they guessed-- correctly-- that the audience would get caught up in Diana's struggle and not get too exercised about Ares' motives for becoming the God of Get These Kids Off My Lawn.

I don't think the flaw spoils the film, BTW. But it is a flaw IMO, and it wouldn't have been that tough to correct.

I wonder if it all would have made a little more sense if these had been included in The History Lesson. Cut...can't imagine why...called Betrayal and Enslaved. I imagine this would have been placed just before the "Revolt"

Betrayed.jpg

Enslaved.jpg

[Punisher007]

Antiope references the enslavement and escape actually. Also it would seem that they found a tasteful way to reference the Heracles stuff without needed to go into all of the explicit details of it.

[RealWonderman]

Antiope references the enslavement and escape actually. Also it would seem that they found a tasteful way to reference the Heracles stuff without needed to go into all of the explicit details of it.

Yes, but it jumps dramatically. I thought it was a bit off every time I watched. Then when I saw these, it made perfect sense to me why I thought it was off.

It goes from "But it did not last" to "Your Mother, the Queen of the Amazons led a revolt..." then to "When the gods came to our aide, Ares killed them one by one..."

[brettc1]

Yes, but it jumps dramatically. I thought it was a bit off every time I watched. Then when I saw these, it made perfect sense to me why I thought it was off.

It goes from "But it did not last" to "Your Mother, the Queen of the Amazons led a revolt..." then to "When the gods came to our aide, Ares killed them one by one..."

I don't feel like anything was missing in the narrative. And the inclusion of the betrayal image especially would, I think, have been pushing the boundaries of young viewer appropriateness.

[Punisher007]

It is really hard not to look at that painting and not realize what's actually going on there. Antiope might as well have said "and then Heracles and his men tortured and raped us, until your mother led us to freedom."

[brettc1]

It is really hard not to look at that painting and not realize what's actually going on there. Antiope might as well have said "and then Heracles and his men tortured and raped us, until your mother led us to freedom."

As I said.

The movie is very careful in the way it presents adult concepts, but in such a way that adults understand what is going on but younger viewers can appreciate the situation without complete understanding of the nuances. It operates well on multiple levels.

For example, Steve and Diana's love scene is presented quite conservatively, where it could have been much racier. Prior to that the woman in the trench tells Diana that villagers are being used as "slaves". Now as an adult I took that to imply the women being used as "comfort women", but my 9 year old daughter got the idea that something bad was happening without needing the more gruesome details.

That bring the case I can see why Patty Jrnkins might have decided that image, while beautifully painted, was to graphic for the movie she was putting together.

[AmiMizuno]

Wow . This day I have been waiting for. Diana is so popular now that people love her more. So this is causing a problem


https://www.polygon.com/2017/6/17/15...gue?yptr=yahoo

[Triple J]

Wow . This day I have been waiting for. Diana is so popular now that people love her more. So this is causing a problem


https://www.polygon.com/2017/6/17/15...gue?yptr=yahoo

Glad Diana is having success with audience, but that article is just bs.

Kevin Costner’s Jonathan Kent spent most of his screen time in Man of Steel trying to convince Clark not to be Superman, to the point that he was willing to die so his son wouldn’t have to be a hero.

Lol, what? Seems like the writer didn't even pay attention to the film.

Yeah, I stopped reading the article there. But, glad Diana is having this success - here's hoping it leads to more WW stuff, from games to cartoons

[Vanguard-01]

Wow . This day I have been waiting for. Diana is so popular now that people love her more. So this is causing a problem


https://www.polygon.com/2017/6/17/15...gue?yptr=yahoo

That's not a problem at all. It just means that they've seen a pretty clear indicator of what people want from their movies.

They tried something different, and it was never meant to be a permanent thing to begin with. The plan was always to take the DCEU in a more positive direction, so this just confirms to them that that's what the audience wants. Now that they know that, they'll make movies more in line with this movie. They'll sell lots of tickets. The critics will love it. Everyone wins.

And yeah, I agree with Jeevanjacobjohn. This article writer is just bashing Snyder's movies and isn't even really using facts to do it. Jonathan Kent did NOT at any point try to convince Clark not to be Superman. He told him that one day he would change the world, and that he needed to be very sure he knew who he was and what he wanted to be before he made the decision to reveal himself. That's not discouraging. That's emphasizing the importance of Clark's decisions.

I could point out other flaws in the article, but I've countered these arguments so many times, I'm just bored with it. The important thing is that Wonder Woman is successful and DC/WB can analyze what worked and what didn't work and apply that knowledge to their future movies and hopefully this golden age of CBM has not yet even truly begun. Once Marvel and DC start offering each other some truly serious competition, both sides are going to just keep getting more and more innovative with these movies and we, as fans, will just be loving every minute of it. When two companies offer two very similar products and start competing with each other on more or less equal terms, the customers win.