Wonder Woman Movie Discussion & SPOILERS

[Osiris-Rex]

I love the Ultimate Cut. I can't believe they didn't release the full cut in theaters. That was the mistake.

Agreed, the Ultimate Cut was much better. It was odd what they chose to cut out and leave in for the theatrical release. But according to Patty Jenkins there
won't be a director's cut for Wonder Woman because just about everything filmed for Wonder Woman was in the theatrical release.

[RealWonderman]

Agreed, the Ultimate Cut was much better. It was odd what they chose to cut out and leave in for the theatrical release. But according to Patty Jenkins there
won't be a director's cut for Wonder Woman because just about everything filmed for Wonder Woman was in the theatrical release.

Yes! That's both awesome, and not awesome, at the same time. haa

[Awonder]

... But according to Patty Jenkins there won't be a director's cut for Wonder Woman because just about everything filmed for Wonder Woman was in the theatrical release.

I read that a little while ago; it's pretty impressive. Go Patty (and crew)!

The DVD/blue ray might not get much in the way of deleted scenes, but it should have some behind-the-scenes. I think it would be wonderful to show Gal filming when she was pregnant and her green screen belly.

[RealWonderman]

August 29 for digital, September 19 for blu ray!!

http://batman-news.com/2017/08/01/wo...es-and-amazon/

[Vanguard-01]

August 29 for digital, September 19 for blu ray!!

http://batman-news.com/2017/08/01/wo...es-and-amazon/

Two months? Gah! That's such a long wait!

Ah, who am I kidding? I waited ten years for this movie! A couple more months to own it is nothing!

[Jim Kelly]

I guess the run of the movie in the theatres is soon going to end if they're planning to release it for purchase already.

[Awonder]

Sept release? Really? Wow! They release them really fast these days. But, who am I to complain, I have a lot of catching up to do if I'm going to be in the same fan club as RealWonderman.

[enish]

I read that a little while ago; it's pretty impressive. Go Patty (and crew)!

The DVD/blue ray might not get much in the way of deleted scenes, but it should have some behind-the-scenes. I think it would be wonderful to show Gal filming when she was pregnant and her green screen belly.

Nevertheless, we did see that there are deleted shots in several scenes, like for example in the training montage of Diana on Themyscira. There was this shot of her against three amazons that didn't make it to the theatrical cut, and there are also a couple of shots in the warehouse scene we saw in trailers that also did not make it to the theatrical cut!
I hope we get to see them in some way.

[RealWonderman]

Sept release? Really? Wow! They release them really fast these days. But, who am I to complain, I have a lot of catching up to do if I'm going to be in the same fan club as RealWonderman.

In my area, it's still playing at almost every theater...but it's also showing at the "dollar theater" soon. I think we will have the movie available in regular theaters, discount theaters, and digital all at the same time!

[Awonder]

Well, my user name is kind of abbreviated from my real name...

As for the movie, I'm somewhat torn. As an action/superhero movie it was OK. I won't discuss all the plot holes / logical holes - others have done so already. As a Wonder Woman movie, I am not so happy. This was not the heroine that I know and love. (If that sounds weird - let's say "that I'm a fan of".) Without going into too much detail here, if I compare Diana in the movie to WW in Marston's comics, I am disappointed in the following points:

- Diana is a daughter of Zeus, and she was created as a weapon. She's an object with a purpose. That is a sad origin. Marston's WW was created by Aphrodite and Athena, and she's a child of love (because Hippolyta desired a daughter so much).

- Diana carries a sword and kills deliberately. Marston's WW did not carry lethal weapons and says "Every life is sacred, by Aphrodite's law."

- Diana steals weapons and armor, and sneaks away like a thief in the night. Marston's WW earned the right to the costume and the lasso by winning the tournament, and she left Paradise Island with the blessings of her mother.

- Diana mostly tags along with Steve Trevor, and all her sidekicks are male. Marston's WW sets the pace from the beginning, and when she gets in difficulties, she mostly relies on the Holliday Girls (and sometimes Steve) to bail her out.

To be fair, most of those points do not fall on the head of the movie team or the script writers, but on the head of DC. They have changed Wonder Woman's origin and her character so much from what she originally was (and especially during the timeframe when the movie was made), that Diana seems to be an evil version of WW, from a parallel universe.

Please note that this is my personal opinion, and I can't speak for the German public in general. I am fully aware that I'm a nerd...

Thank you, HGZIP, for sharing your thoughts (copied from the Introduce yourself thread).

1) I agree with you on Zeus. As I've said in the threads on him, adding him takes away from the female-centric aspects of the WW story. The poor patron goddesses get pushed aside and not even mentioned. The good side is that, though Diana may have be "born" a "weapon," Hippolyta clearly loved her so much. Young Diana running around the island is so cute.

2) I'm ok with Diana using a sword, at times, and thought the movie handled this pretty well. The sword isn't even the real weapon. I was really glad they made good use of the lasso, visually, it's much more distinctive and exciting to watch.

3) I understand preferring the contest, especially, as you said, how she earns the right to be the Champion of the Amazons. I really like the recent retelling in WW Year One. The heartfelt and tearful good bye between mother and daughter is so beautiful there.

But, I, also, like how the movie handled it. There is a certain power in the scene where Diana decides she's going to leap off the cliff and climb that tower, relying on and believing in herself to get there. As one article put it: "ACTION TRIGGERS POWER, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND." It's "her will, determination, and call to action has caused her superpowers to emerge – not the other way around." http://screenrant.com/wonder-woman-movie-best-scene/

4) She kind of has to tag along with Steve for a bit as she doesn't know this world. But, she pays no attention when he tells her to wait outside the meeting of only men and is smart enough to quickly decode Dr. Poison's journal. And when he tells her that it's just not possible to cross No Man's Land, she proves him wrong and inspires Steve and all the troops to follow her in setting the town free. It's one of the best moments I've seen in a movie in a long time. Hopefully, the sequel will allow her some more female allies; I'd love to see Diana and Mera as friends in JL.

[Awonder]

Also, from the Introduce yourself thread:

Hi Hgzip! Thank you for your insights! I wouldn't know what the others of this message board have been saying about the Wonder Woman movie because I haven't seen the other threads yet. But I'd love to answer you point by point...

1. I HATE that they made Diana the daughter of Zeus, just like you, but that really wasn't the film's fault. It was DC, as you said. It happened in the comic books and in the cartoon way before the movie came out, and I was mad about it then too. Why did they take her goddesses away from her? Why did she have to have a father in the traditional sense? I even wrote a long letter to Patty Jenkins (who is writing the next film, even if she hasn't officially signed on to direct yet), begging her to give Diana back her goddesses in the future, maybe in spirit form at least. As George Perez once said, WW without her mythology is like Thor without Asgard. I sort of get what DC was trying to do when they made that decision - it makes her a legitimate demi-god, but I think it also robs her of some of her feminism, and I think it was a bad move. I also think it was a bad move of the film to have all the gods be dead but Ares. And it begs a huge question... at what point did Zeus impregnate Hippolyta if he died when he created Themyscira? I was trying to write some fan fiction about Wonder Woman's past based on movie cannon, and the question is driving me mad. If Hippolyta already had Diana inside of her when the island was first built, then Diana lived on the island for thousands of years before Steve arrived. Most of that time would have been spent being an adult, not a child (unless she took that long to mature from child to adult, which would be hard to fathom). But she is portrayed as being young and innocent in the film when she leaves the island. As if she had just grown up recently. So which is it? Did Zeus impregnate Hippolyta thousands of years ago and she took forever to mature? Did she mature at a normal rate and she's much older and wiser than she seems? Or is the children's story that Hippolyta read to Diana false, and Zeus is still alive, and he impregnated her not that long ago? I really need to know the answer to this question! Does anyone else on this forum know?

2. I feel that in our modern era, it would be a mistake to make a film based directly on Marston's version of Wonder Woman. It would be like keeping Wolverine in yellow spandex. It wouldn't be palpable to a modern day audience. Do you realize how often Marston had WW in chains saying how much she liked being subservient? How often she was shown to want to give up everything so she could just be Steve's wife? The Golden and Silver Age issues are filled with this kind of stuff. Also, whether she's using her fists or a sword, it's violence no matter what. She's always been a dichotomy of philosophies. Yes, she believes in peace over all and that is her highest mission, but she's not going to get there by being Gandhi. She's a warrior, trained by the Amazons, and her fighting skills are unsurpassed. What good is having god-like speed and strength if she doesn't use it to protect those who can't protect themselves? The sword has always been a symbol of honor and protection as well as a killing device. Either way, she's fighting bad guys and protecting the weak,and she's doing this the only way she knows how. I think the sword is incredibly cool, and I don't mind her using it at all. She still believes that every life is sacred, and she alluded to that at one point in the film too. However, she will kill if necessary. This has been portrayed in many of her comic series (depending on the writer), and again is not the film's fault. It is a tough area, though, that could be debated both ways.

3. Okay, I gave this one a lot of thought, and I decided that if Diana has been on this island for thousands of years (and even if she hasn't) the tournament wouldn't make any sense because she would be immediately recognized, no matter how well she disguised herself. All the Amazons know each other quiet well, I would imagine, and if she's the only one in a mask of some kind, and she's mysteriously missing from the spectators, they would know. Hippolyta isn't an idiot. Just the shape of her legs, or a stray curl of her hair would give her away. I call this another "yellow spandex" moment that wouldn't jive with a modern audience. Yellow spandex is when they have to break with comic book cannon in order to translate to the big screen. Like her outfit... I couldn't be more relieved to see her out of her patriotic American bathing suit! I've always loved my Wonder Woman, but I certainly haven't always loved her costume. She looks WAAAAAY better now! I'm also so thrilled to see her living somewhere else in the world besides America! Because so many super heroes were created by American writers, our country is over-saturated with them. Her movie wouldn't have had nearly the impact if it had been told from an American point of view. I'm so grateful America wasn't involved in the film at all! We barely experienced either of the wars compared to what other countries had to endure!

4. An interesting point. I think all the side kicks had to be male in order to avoid alienating the male audience, since most of the comic book movie audience has always been male (up until WW, YAY!), so they had to balance things out a bit. But on a positive note, you'll notice she never listened to any of Steve's directions, and she never needed support or rescuing from anyone else. She stood alone and did the rescuing herself. Steve didn't save her from Ares. He didn't save her from the bad guys in the alley. He never saved her from anything except a bit of clothing embarrassment. And his friends didn't help her with anything either. Steve's friends helped Steve. They didn't help HER, and I think that's an important distinction.

Thank you so much for your insights! This is just the kind of debating I wanted to do! And of course, these are just my personal opinions. :-)

1) Yeah, I'm not sure the timeline with Zeus and Diana's birth really works. But, the logistics of it is the least of my worries.

2) Like you, I didn't feel like they overused the sword, and the lasso didn't get left out, so I'm ok with it in the movie.

3) One of my favorite retellings of the contest came from Sensation Comics #2 that came out a few years ago. In there, a young Diana learns that she has to earn her second bracelet in combat. As the princess, this means she has to defeat her mother, the queen. So, over the years, she has many failed attempts at ambushing her mom. Until, during the contest, where she emerges as the leader. "Helmet or no helmet, armor or no armor, a mother knows her daughter." Here, Queen Hippolyta challenges Diana. And, after Diana wins, knocking her mother to the ground, Hippolyta jumps up with a smile on her face and hugs Diana to congratulate her. I enjoy the movie version, but this and Year One are even better.

4) I love the alley scene! Such a great call back to Superman, but even better. One of the best scenes in the movie.

[Awonder]

Pictures from the new WW exhibit at WB studios:

http://ew.com/movies/wonder-woman-wa...save-the-world

[hgzip]

Awonder, thanks for copying this over, and for your reply. Also thanks to TrueWWFan.

Before I continue the discussion, I want to add (regarding Awonder's question about how the movie was perceived in Germany) that the critic of the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (one of the best German newspapers, and the one I read) was very enthusiastic. This guy wrote a book on superhero comics, so he actually knows what he's talking about. He obviously didn't feel the problems that I felt.

Now, regarding the points I made previously.

1) There are so many logic holes in the movie that I don't really care about the exact sequence of events regarding Diana's birth. You may just assume that time passes differently on Paradise Island, so that 2000 years in the outside world are 20 years on the island? Somewhere in Jimenez' or Rucka's first run, the amazons discuss the confusing origin of Donna Troy AKA Wondergirl, and one of them says "Don't think too hard about it!" That's the best solution here, also.

If you start to think about the Zeus origin, it leads to the question - is Diana a goddess or a half-goddess? By Greek mythology standards, she is a half-goddess because Hippolyta isn't a goddess. OTOH, "only a god can kill a god", and she seems to be ageless. Demi-gods _did_ age and die, even Heracles (the most-favored son of Zeus).

As I said, I don't believe that all the gods are dead. The Greeks had an enormous number of gods - Ares would be really busy to kill them all. Besides the 12 Olympian gods, there were many second-rate gods. Some of them might even be useful to Ares. Just think of Nyx and her various offspring like Hecate, Eris (Strife) and Circe. And who in his right mind would kill Aphrodite? Even Xena (when she went on a god-killing spree) didn't kill Aphrodite. Aphrodite is manipulative, but no real danger to Ares. Her fighting abilities are nil. In the Trojan war, when she tried to fight on the Trojan side, she was wounded by a mortal Greek hero!

In the end, I assume the movie team just wanted to get rid of the gods, because otherwise it would always lead to the question "why didn't the gods fight Darkseid" etc.; and the existence of gods might also step on the toes of religious zealots.

2) I agree that WW is pretty violent in Marston's version, also. I remember a scene where the bad guys try to escape in an airplane, and WW picks up a car and throws it at the starting plane, creating a huge explosion. I guess nobody walks away from that...

My point is that a sword doesn't have much other use than maiming and killing, and that she kills a mostly defenseless man in cold blood. She has Ludendorff wrapped up in the lasso, and runs him through. And she didn't even make sure that she had Ares - she just wanted to believe that. That's on a par, or even worse, than Max Lord. (Not that Ludendorff wasn't a bad guy!) Later, when she really confronts Ares, she says "I believe in love" and then kills her (half-)brother.

If you ask me how Diana _should_ have handled all that: The plot of the movie seems to be (loosely) derived from Perez' story "Gods and Mortals". This is WW's reboot after the Crisis, handling all the stuff with the origin of the amazons, Steve crashing on the island, Diana winning the tournament, etc. The story is set in the Cold War. Ares (out of boredom, it seems) decides to lauch the greatest possible war by provoking a full nuclear exchange between the US and the Soviet Union. He has henchmen on both sides, with the finger on the red button. WW confronts Ares and wraps him in the lasso. The lasso not only makes you speak the truth, it also makes you realize the truth - you can't lie to yourself. (A very powerful weapon IMHO.) Ares realizes that if he goes thru with his scheme, all humans will die. Nobody will be left to worship him, nobody will be left that he can manipulate. He will have doomed himself to an eternity of boredom. Ares drops his scheme and releases his henchmen. That's how you do it without killing.

Oh, and if you give her weapons - please use the correct ones. Amazons carried bow and arrows, and a battleaxe ('sagaris' or 'labrys') with a long handle, according to Greek descriptions.

3) is really matter of taste, so I'll drop it - this posting is long enough already

4) is a matter of what powers and knowledge Diana brings to the world. In Marston's version, she knows enough about Man's World to live in Washington DC without problems (except for her costume...), and there is no language barrier. The amazons have a magic mirror or magic sphere to observe the outside world. (Obviously, Marston didn't want to waste many pages with Diana acquiring the language and knowledge she needs. This was a comic for children, and he needed to go on with the superhero story. He had worked for a Hollywood studio before, so he knew how to tell a story.) She can't fly, but she has the invisible plane for transportation. She can go where she wants and does not need to rely on anybody.

In Perez' version (and Rucka's Rebirth), she can fly, but does not speak the language, and has a lot to learn about Man's World. She has Prof. Julia Kapatelis or Dr. Barbara Minerva for that. Still, she has powers and can go where she wants. (BTW, I really like Rucka's idea that the lasso allows people with different languages to communicate, while they touch it. That's great.)

In the movie, she can not fly, and she does not have the invisible plane (or any at all...) So she needs to tag along with Steve and his friends. I disagree with TrueWWFan here: she absolutely needs their support. Without Steve, she would never get to the front, and she would not find the bad guys in time. Her power set is not balanced. This makes her dependent. She is unstoppable in battle, but she can't get to where the action is without outside help. I hope this gets better in the sequel. As a goddess, she should be able to fly or to teleport.

In the movie, she speaks all languages. Of course, like in Marston's story, the movie does not want to spend time on Diana having to learn the language. But this creates another of those logic holes: how can the amazons speak modern languages if they have no contact to the outside world? If they have such contact, why don't they know about the war, and why are they so naive about Man's World? Is the language thing simply undefined magic? I hate undefined magic (that's one of the few points where I agree with Batman...)

In my mind, they have contact to the outside world. How else would Hippolyta come up with a name like 'Diana'? That's not a Greek name, that's actually the Latin version of the goddess Artemis. And the first thing that I checked in the movie (I said that I'm a nerd) - the mounted amazons have stirrups. Bronze age and Iron age riders didn't have stirrups. So they got that idea from Man's World?

[RealWonderman]

Lot's of insightful input!

There's a novelization of the book that is quite handy for answering a lot of these questions, especially regarding how she was absolutely convinced that Ludendorff was Ares.

I don't agree that there were any deep plot holes. I believe there were some things which were left ambiguous for a couple reasons...moving the story along, and leaving loose ends for the sequels.

Regarding the gods, the number of gods, etc, we really don't know (in the DCEU) if there were more than twelve gods, but aside from that, we REALLY don't know which parts of the story relayed to Diana by Hippolyta were literal, and which parts were "just a story." This goes for Diana's ambiguous parentage as well. (I still say Ares' statement does not indicate, necessarily that Diana's birth was by any means traditional..."Zeus left the child he had with the Queen of the Amazons as a weapon to use against me" doesn't really say anything more than what it says.) I like that Diana's creation was for the purpose of being a weapon, ONLY because it is 100% contradictory to what and who she becomes. (I also think the "weapon" part of the line is what got the reaction from Diana in that scene, not the "child he had with" part. We don't know if there are any other children of Zeus or demi gods in this universe (Aquaman could be the son of Poseidon though), but I believe "only a god can kill another god" includes Diana for the "can kill" part" but maybe not the "can only be killed by" part, because she is a demi god not a full god. But that's a bit ambiguous...I have a feeling it will come up later, in a significant way. And I agree...I don't think the gods are really dead.

Regarding how time passes on Themyscira, I think when Etta states Steve had "been gone for weeks, without a word," we were being handed an Easter egg. They were only on Themyscira for one day, I believe, and even with travel time to get back to London from wherever Themyscira is located, this doesn't account for weeks. (Etta knew about Steve's original mission, so I would not count those days in "gone for weeks" either.)

Regarding the sword, Diana had that sword for a very specific reason...she believed it was the Godkiller. She didn't kill anyone with it besides Ludendorff. I would also argue that swords, shields, bows, etc are all acceptable, regardless of what was depicted in actual Mythology, as they've been shown to use all types of weapons, right? Artemis uses a battleaxe as her weapon of choice, so they didn't leave these out.

Regarding Diana's powers, she had no idea what her powers were when she left the island. No one did (thus Antiope's sacrifice.) She learned her powers along the way, ONLY by pushing her limits...and she got stronger all along the way, especially during the Ares confrontation (and unless she intended to jump into the Seine at the end of the movie, I believe she is flying to the fire to help.)

Regarding the guys, she wasn't dependent on them at all, but she learned a little lesson from each of them along the way. (And she didn't listen to Steve ONCE, BTW.) It seems like it was VERY important for all of this to happen, otherwise, she would have no reference point for her love of humanity. When she talks about "love" she's not only talking about Steve, obviously, she is talking about a love for mankind, and she wouldn't have this if it weren't for the Wizard of Oz gang.

Regarding the languages, if they were created to be a bridge to a greater understanding between all men, then it would make sense that they just "know" languages. They're magical/miraculous people, so not a problem that they can know and speak all languages...they do it by instinct, like involuntary muscles.

Again, really enjoyed your post and insights! welcome to the discussion!!!

(I hope there are no spelling and grammar errors from my editing...did this in a flash...I'm working. VERY HARD obviously haha.)

[BiteTheBullet]

Regarding Diana's powers, she had no idea what her powers were when she left the island. No one did (thus Antiope's sacrifice.) She learned her powers along the way, ONLY by pushing her limits...and she got stronger all along the way, especially during the Ares confrontation (and unless she intended to jump into the Seine at the end of the movie, I believe she is flying to the fire to help.)

You might believe it, and I also hope you are right. But all signs with regards to trailers and the like for the Justice League movie does not indicate that she will.

Unless Joss Whedon's reshoots suddenly include her flying.......but, I get the idea that Zak Synder already did the action shots.

Right now, she is above an olympic class long jumper