Do you see Superman as a badass?

[Kuwagaton]

No, he doesnt need that sort of thing. But I admit to having a fondness for seeing it once in a while. Manchester Black tricks Clark into thinking his family is dead? Darkseid just nuked Kara off the face of the earth? Lex just shot Jimmy Olsen? Toyman just murdered (and probably worse) Cat Grant's son? Moments like that deserve the red-eyed angry god. But those moments should be a "once every 18 months if not longer" sort of thing.

But that's a reaction, not a projection. That's Superman past the point of intimidation and just being angry. Which I agree is fine if writers are rarely taking it there. Sparingly like we saw from Moore in Whatever Happened and Annual 11 (well pretty much back to back in this case, haha) it can be cool, but never as cool as the man who hold back a storm with compassion.

Like with Toyman, he quickly realized that the guy needed professional help. Almost everyone in Batman does, but the grit never really ceases.

[Ascended]

But that's a reaction, not a projection. That's Superman past the point of intimidation and just being angry. Which I agree is fine if writers are rarely taking it there. Sparingly like we saw from Moore in Whatever Happened and Annual 11 (well pretty much back to back in this case, haha) it can be cool, but never as cool as the man who hold back a storm with compassion.

Like with Toyman, he quickly realized that the guy needed professional help. Almost everyone in Batman does, but the grit never really ceases.

This is true. But I still put these moments in the "badass" category because, even if he's not projecting, there's not much out there more badass than a red-eyed angry god who has had enough of your sh*t.

[dianafan1985]

I voted no because he has no edge. Everything comes easy to him. He's the golden boy of the DCU, and from a societal standpoint, he screams privilege.

I respect him solely because he is the first superhero, and is a symbol of courage, goodness, and hope. But he ain't badass.

[Kuwagaton]

Every superhero is privileged. Even tragic figures like Bruce banner, because super strength is infinitely better than writhing around in cancerous, burned flesh until death.

[The World]

I voted yes. But it depends a lot of what you consider as being a Badass.

It depends on what constitutes as being a "badass".

I don't think of Superman as a baddass, but I'm sure there are character moments I like, that people would consider as badass.

I think it depends on what is meant by badass. The word is thrown about so often I am uncertain what is meant when I see or hear it. Sooooooooooo what do you mean when you say "badass"?

Rugged, assertive, uncompromising in what he thinks he needs to do, carries an aura of authority with him, and ready to spank anyone who wants to try him.

[The World]

I voted no because he has no edge. Everything comes easy to him. He's the golden boy of the DCU, and from a societal standpoint, he screams privilege.

I respect him solely because he is the first superhero, and is a symbol of courage, goodness, and hope. But he ain't badass.

What does this mean?

[Agent Z]

What does this mean?

I believe the poster refers to him being a highly powered alien who can easily blend in with Earth and who is generally depicted as being unchallenged in terms of power or morality.

[Black Angel]

No not by my definition, but when he tries he does have some badass moments. For my badass definition its characters like Guts from Berserk, Alucard from hellsing, kenshiro from fist of the north star, Killua from Hunter x Hunter. Spectre Lucifer Morningstar, kratos, spawn, Saint of killers, Batman etc.

[Superlad93]

I voted no because he has no edge. Everything comes easy to him. He's the golden boy of the DCU, and from a societal standpoint, he screams privilege.

I respect him solely because he is the first superhero, and is a symbol of courage, goodness, and hope. But he ain't badass.

Batman is white, richer than God, amazingly brilliant, the peak of modern human physicality (likely in part due to being blessed with great genetics as a foundation to his training), and he's devilishly handsome. He is by every modern definition privileged. And yet, I promise you that he has all the stamps on his badass card.

The fact of the matter is, as Kuwagaton, all superheroes are privileged. Even the angst riddled mutants of the X Men. Being persecuted sucks balls, but, on the other hand, being a weather goddess, telekinetic goddess, immortal, or master of all the EM spectrum sounds pretty dope.

We're trained from an early age to be suspect of those that are in power without check. We assume the worst. After all, absolute power corrupts absolutely, right? Well, not when you're Superman. Superman's creators had the dream of a being who used his absolute power to stand up for and fight for those not quite strong enough against those that would abuse their power. And from that simple idea of a very, very strong guy who happened to not be a dick, is birthed the superhero genre.

They are all by definition privileged, and that is part of the whole point.

Just like all of his juniors after him, I feel like Superman is more than capable of being badass when the mood strikes. But, that also depends on one's personal definition of badass because it's a pretty subjective term to use.

[DochaDocha]

Batman is white, richer than God, amazingly brilliant, the peak of modern human physicality (likely in part due to being blessed with great genetics as a foundation to his training), and he's devilishly handsome. He is by every modern definition privileged. And yet, I promise you that he has all the stamps on his badass card.

The fact of the matter is, as Kuwagaton, all superheroes are privileged. Even the angst riddled mutants of the X Men. Being persecuted sucks balls, but, on the other hand, being a weather goddess, telekinetic goddess, immortal, or master of all the EM spectrum sounds pretty dope.

We're trained from an early age to be suspect of those that are in power without check. We assume the worst. After all, absolute power corrupts absolutely, right? Well, not when you're Superman. Superman's creators had the dream of a being who used his absolute power to stand up for and fight for those not quite strong enough against those that would abuse their power. And from that simple idea of a very, very strong guy who happened to not be a dick, is birthed the superhero genre.

They are all by definition privileged, and that is part of the whole point.

Just like all of his juniors after him, I feel like Superman is more than capable of being badass when the mood strikes. But, that also depends on one's personal definition of badass because it's a pretty subjective term to use.

Just to play a little devil's advocate here...

As you say, even the persecuted X-Men are privileged because of powers, and Batman has none. Somehow, either writers have been able to spin the narrative, or readers comes from the point of view that being able to keep up with the powered people while not having your own powers makes you someone who has overcome lack of privilege. If in the superhero world superpowers are the ultimate privilege, and Batman doesn't have powers, then it doesn't matter how white, male, hetero, rich, handsome, able-bodied (for a non-metahuman), educated, etc. he is. He had to overcome adversity because he has no powers and his parents died.

Anyway, devil's advocate.

Perhaps this just speaks more to Superman's PR problem that many other superheroes don't have.

[dietrich]

Of course Superman is a Badass Come on dude.

[Superlad93]

Just to play a little devil's advocate here...

As you say, even the persecuted X-Men are privileged because of powers, and Batman has none. Somehow, either writers have been able to spin the narrative, or readers comes from the point of view that being able to keep up with the powered people while not having your own powers makes you someone who has overcome lack of privilege. If in the superhero world superpowers are the ultimate privilege, and Batman doesn't have powers, then it doesn't matter how white, male, hetero, rich, handsome, able-bodied (for a non-metahuman), educated, etc. he is. He had to overcome adversity because he has no powers and his parents died.

But then you forget he's one of the smartest and most clever creatures on the planet. His money grants access to whatever tools and material he need. He even has enough money and know-how to make a Bat suit that beats up most of the JL, and kryptonite gum to take down Superman. Him being able to keep up and even outclass metas and gods is due to his high IQ and endless recrosses. Thus, in the world of supermen and gods, Batman stands shoulder to shoulder.

Perhaps this just speaks more to Superman's PR problem that many other superheroes don't have.

The simple answer is that Batman's aesthetic, origin, and setting are more conventionally cool, and on top of that, it's all pretty effortless. Conventionally cool characters are more easily associated with the general idea of what a badass is.

Superman's real PR problem come from the envy that some of his fans and creators have for other properties that are doing better. And that's my honest opinion of it. There are aspects to the character that only he can pull off. Being shy of his strengthens, giving up on how to better accentuate, and being more percipience in success of other characters is the issue. Superman is literally an immigrant/1st generation trying to make it in America/Earth. America's greatest fictional hero is an immigrant. That's legit just engraved into his concept. I couldn't think of a more topical idea if I tried. Yet, for some reason, we're not all that interested in pushing that more, and making it more of the crux of the character. That's not something Batman can copy or do better. MM and Supergirl do a version of this, but it's far closer to a "fresh of the boat" take. Clark is speaking to the kids like myself that come from immigrant parents, but were essentially born in the US, and feel of two worlds due to their heritage. He's speaking to tomorrow.

As creators, they just have to look at ways to tackle these unique aspects of the character with more candor and fun. It can be done.

[DochaDocha]

But then you forget he's one of the smartest and most clever creatures on the planet. His money grants access to whatever tools and material he need. He even has enough money and know-how to make a Bat suit that beats up most of the JL, and kryptonite gum to take down Superman. Him being able to keep up and even outclass metas and gods is due to his high IQ and endless recrosses. Thus, in the world of supermen and gods, Batman stands shoulder to shoulder.

Oh, there was a something kind of tongue-in-cheek in my last post. I mean, I think you can make an argument that Batman's got legitimate handicaps to overcome, but at the same time, let's not feel too sorry for poor little rich, handsome, clever, educated, physically-fit, boy.

The simple answer is that Batman's aesthetic, origin, and setting are more conventionally cool, and on top of that, it's all pretty effortless. Conventionally cool characters are more easily associated with the general idea of what a badass is.

Superman's real PR problem come from the envy that some of his fans and creators have for other properties that are doing better. And that's my honest opinion of it. There are aspects to the character that only he can pull off. Being shy of his strengthens, giving up on how to better accentuate, and being more percipience in success of other characters is the issue. Superman is literally an immigrant/1st generation trying to make it in America/Earth. America's greatest fictional hero is an immigrant. That's legit just engraved into his concept. I couldn't think of a more topical idea if I tried. Yet, for some reason, we're not all that interested in pushing that more, and making it more of the crux of the character. That's not something Batman can copy or do better. MM and Supergirl do a version of this, but it's far closer to a "fresh of the boat" take. Clark is speaking to the kids like myself that come from immigrant parents, but were essentially born in the US, and feel of two worlds due to their heritage. He's speaking to tomorrow.

As creators, they just have to look at ways to tackle these unique aspects of the character with more candor and fun. It can be done.

I think there's more to it than fan envy. There are a lot of specific arguments made against Superman. Whether it's his showrunner commenting that the character is inherently dull or corny, or some random YouTube video I posted earlier today saying he's boring because he's a paragon of virtue and is more interesting when he's evil, or the average non-fan saying he's uninteresting because he's too powerful and everything comes by too easily, yeah, there's something about the character that isn't selling well with others that DC or WB have to apologize for, work around, or flat out change in future iterations. It's not to say Superman doesn't have his fans; I think a lot of people like aspects of the character, or understand that he's a pioneering character for the superhero genre. However, I feel like other heroes generally only have to worry about apathy, whereas if Superman can get around apathy then he has to dodge a lot of antipathy, too. From a purely anecdotal perspective, I hear quite the cornucopia of complaints, some of it almost paradoxical like one guy saying Superman sucks because he's boringly overpowered, but another guy complaining that he's a p***y and can't beat [fill in the blank]. Maybe Captain America also gets complaints about being too much of a goody-goody, but not for being overpowered. Etc. I don't want to make this a laundry list of every Superman complaint, but most of us have read or heard the myriad of things that allegedly are wrong with Superman. When I say Superman has a PR problem, I'm not saying (necessarily) that DC and WB don't do enough to hype him up, it's just that despite his decently-sized fanbase, a lot people genuinely think the character sucks.

[Superlad93]

When I say Superman has a PR problem, I'm not saying (necessarily) that DC and WB don't do enough to hype him up, it's just that despite his decently-sized fanbase, a lot people genuinely think the character sucks.

To be frank, he's old, straightforward, powerful, very apart of the world's culture as a constant, and contrarians are a thing. Batman's conventionally cool so his age and place in the world don't matter. And also, some people just think some characters suck. I think Cyclops and Jean are just the worst ever. I don't really have a essay to write about why, but I feel pretty darn strongly about it. I imagine the same is true for a whole bunch of people about Superman. I don't think it's a code that needs cracking. He's just old and famous enough that more people can have a strong opinion on him.

All you can do is accentuate what's great, relatable, and topical about him. It won't fix everything, but it will help.

[L.R Johansson]

I voted yes.

However, that vote is dependent on a few things - namely that my preferred variation of the character is either the Golden Age Kal-L, or the New-52 variation - I would call both of those versions "bad-ass".

I would NOT however, call the Post-Crisis version as such, he is a different sort of character. Nothing wrong with that, but he does have a lighter touch, if you like.