Do you see Superman as a badass?

[Agent Z]

You completely missed the point of ever thing I was discussing with AquaLantern.

Nope. Understood it just fine

[CPSparkles]

Nope. Understood it just fine

Nope you did not

[Francisco]

Not at all. Sometimes Superman gets so low he becomes a whuss.
Superman is a character with tons of potential, but he's been stagnated for over 3 decades now.
The scenes about Jon's emerging powers... Was it really necessary to have Batman come in and show how little Superman actually knows.
I mean, Superman that has at his disposal the technology in the Fortress, wasn't able to reach the same conclusions Batman reached using Earth technology.

When I look at Superman, I look at a character that's living so below his potential, it becomes insulting to fans and the character itself.
Almost everything about Superman is simply outdated. The way he operates, his inability to properly prepare himself for any situation tht he may face. Just shows how much he has fallen from being the Man Of Tomorrow, to the Man Of The Past.
Not only that... His lack of initiative to actually train and improve himself.
And even if he didn't trained, he could at least wear a suit equipped with kryptonian technology. If Batman can have suits equipped with all sorts of redundancies, then Superman should use the kryptonian sunstone technology, to create suits, prepared for the red solar and kryptonite situations. But he never does that.

Superman could even study kryptonite, and its very isotopes, and for example create serums or out of them. Here's an example... We know that red kryptonite can cause temporary mutations in kryptonian DNA, and that with blue kryptonite (Pre-Flashpoint) that seemingly had no effects in normal kryptonians, had the same effect on Bizarro that green had on Superman, while green on Bizarro made him more powerful.
So we could have Superman arrive at the conclusion that Blue Kryptonite if energized could increase a kryptonian powers, but only temporarily.
So he creates a serum or a sunstone crystal infused with the energies of red and blue kryptonite, in such a way that if Superman was to bathe in the energy of the sun at its surface or by sun dipping, and when Superman returned, his powers would've been permanently increased.
Basically the serum or suntone crystal, create a temporary boost to his kryptonian DNA, making him able to permanently increase his powers and/or even gain new powers.

Another example. Create a sort of helmet or head device, that connected his brain to the Fortress AI systems, and then run mental exercises meant to increase Superman ability to use his super brain in combat, help him simply control his powers better or even develop new one's.

All these things Superman could be shown doing. And these are simple things that any rookie or pro writer pulls when necessary to develop the character. But what we get is the most non-powerful being on the planet.
Because let's face it. The question isn't even what can take Superman down, but more like what can't bring him down.
His weaknesses are red sunlight, kryptonite, psychics, and magic. All easily exploitable by anyone that really, REALLY, wanted to kill Superman.

Superman is the sort of character who should rarely be written in situations where he is well over his head. He is the type of guy who should always (most of the time) know what's going on around him. Any situation he is involved he should immediately understand not unlike a character like Mr. Fantastic. He shouldn't need to have things explained to him. But then characters like Batman would be useless. Batman needs to take a hike and writers need to start writing Superman as if he had a brain.

A Superman with a brain doesn't need power ups or anti-kryptonite serums. He is smart enough to defeat any enemy and overcome any challenge just by thinking his way out on the spot. It doesn't mean he shouldn't be a forward thinker who in his spare time works at the fortress of solitude's labs developing new technologies he may need in the future.

[dietrich]

Men Superfans are insecure as hell. I don't have a problem with Jon being more powerful since that's never gonna amount to much and I have no problem with Batman being the one to make such a discovery Jon is only half Kryptonian Superman's tech is equipped to study Kryptonians so I can see it missing some stuff.

All of that don't stop Supes from being Badass though.

[Fergus]

I voted yes

[Sacred Knight]

Men Superfans are insecure as hell. I don't have a problem with Jon being more powerful since that's never gonna amount to much and I have no problem with Batman being the one to make such a discovery Jon is only half Kryptonian Superman's tech is equipped to study Kryptonians so I can see it missing some stuff.

All of that don't stop Supes from being Badass though.

Its less insecurity and more being fed up with certain tropes that just won't die. People measured up against and being "better" somehow or another than Superman to make them look good is a tired trope. . Batman always being around to help Superman with things the character is capable of doing on his own in his books is a tired trope. Its not an every-once-in-a-while thing. If it was people would handle it much, much better. I know I would. It may not bother others, and that's perfectly fine too, but I there's far more than insecurity that goes into it for those who don't like the aforementioned things.

[godisawesome]

It's also a bit of a disagreement as to how Superman and his world should be played; some see him as more of a fantasy character who is rarely challenged, some see him as a scifi warrior dealing with a world made to challenge him. To some, he's all about the soft power answers and smiles, and to others, he's got no problem being sarcastic and confrontational. You've got Golden Age vs Silver Age vs Bronze Age vs Post Crisis vs New 52, etc.

To some, yeah, Superman's a badass who lives in a town of badasses. To others, he's not, and if he is, you're missing the point of the character. I like my big blue Boy Scout to be an asskicker with a retrained badass streak. And some people find that weird.

[Wri-El]

Superman is the sort of character who should rarely be written in situations where he is well over his head. He is the type of guy who should always (most of the time) know what's going on around him. Any situation he is involved he should immediately understand not unlike a character like Mr. Fantastic. He shouldn't need to have things explained to him. But then characters like Batman would be useless. Batman needs to take a hike and writers need to start writing Superman as if he had a brain.

A Superman with a brain doesn't need power ups or anti-kryptonite serums. He is smart enough to defeat any enemy and overcome any challenge just by thinking his way out on the spot. It doesn't mean he shouldn't be a forward thinker who in his spare time works at the fortress of solitude's labs developing new technologies he may need in the future.

Exactly!
If Superman used his super brain. Actually used it, he would very difficulty ever be caught off guard, like he is so many times.
Just brain power alone, together with his other powers should make him more than enough. Even the League. He would be so far above the need of anyone else, he'd be more like a doomsday caller. Someone the League would only call upon in really desperate situations.
But even in the League, I personally get the feeling, that Superman is being chained down, so the other characters actually have a purpose being there.

Honestly. If we were given a Superman living to his full potential, the League would him, The Flash, Wonder Woman and Cyborg. That's it. Everyone else is just filling space.

[daBronzeBomma]

Yes.

Badass deeds mixed with chill attitude.

[Wri-El]

Any character can be killed, but they... aren't. So then they're all badasses, or none of them are if that's the criteria. Does this revolve around power or attitude, anyway?


The point there is that spot checking gets difficult when you're close to it. Batman, the world's greatest detective, was in denial that the Owls were operating right under his nose in his own city. But go figure, instead of riding the character or creators, people bought that run in droves and it stands as the most popular series the industry has had in many years. There is an underlying complaint that Superman should be more like Batman, but people love Batman unconditionally. How is that a fair complaint? Meanwhile, Superman both is too powerful and a wimp for not using lethal PEDs. That's not even steroids, it's like bath salts.


That's not something the character is written as incapable of working out, that's just some comic book science you just made up. I can understand liking something more when they somehow take your ideas and shove them into actual stories, but it never really works like that so it's also not a fair expectation.


Look up torquasm rao and vo.

Both Torquasm arts have been removed so long ago I'm not even sure it can even be called canon anymore.

Either way that's the idea. Superman actually improving himself. Look at Martian Manhunter.
He would wipe the floor with Superman basically any day of the week, because a) He has complete mastery over his powers b) He knows almost everything about how his powers work c) He's 99% of the time prepared to handle any situation d) He has almost no weakness. The only weakness he had J'onn was able to mostly grow out of it.
On the other hand Superman rarely evolves at all.
This "Modern Age" Superman as been basically the same for over three decades now. You can name a few changes in the origin stories and power levels, but everything else is basically the same.
And funny enough that's something I only see ib comics and mostly Superman.
The Green Lanterns grew beyond their vulnerability to the color Yellow.
Martian Manhunter mostly grew beyond his weakness to fire.
Batman if anything he's been becoming more proactive than ever. Having redundancies inside redundancies. Fail safes inside fail safes.
Even Kon-El evolved to become better, without being Superman 2.0
But Superman... He's always stuck in the past. Always the same weaknesses. Always doing the same mistakes.
It's almost like when I see someone being able to catch Superman off guard. For a guy that has a brain that can process information at and beyond the speed of light, that should be a very difficult thing to do. But Superman is always shown acting and behaving like he's a human who's been granted powers. He's first and foremost a alien. A kryptonian.
And while pre-PC Superman had pride in both his kryptonian and human heritage. After John Byrne, Superman in some way or another has mostly denied his kryptonian heritage.
The simple fact that Rebirth Superman was unable to recreate kryptonian Sunstone technology, something he had work with for years, seemed like a insult to the character. That he simply doesn't want or doesn't care about improving himself.
And that to me has been Superman stories greatest flaw. What I basically read decades ago, is what I'd read now.
Even this son move. DC simply took what had been in the past always delegated to Elseworld stories and made it part of the main continuity.

[Wri-El]

Having access to technology and knowing how to use it are two different things. Though I agree Batman wasn’t needed.


You just described virtually every superhero not just Superman. Even Batman is more reactionary much of the time these days.


This isn’t something he could do so much as something you to do. Just throwing stuff like this into the story is basically fanfic level writing. Unless he is consistently shown the ability to pull this off there is no reason for it to exist in the story.

Because let's face it. The question isn't even what can take Superman down, but more like what can't bring him down.

And Batman could be killed with a bullet to the face. Yet Gotham’s most ruthless criminals either forget to aim when he’s around or place him in overly elaborate death traps that he always escapes from.

Is it really so hard to envision a Superman doing what I said, naturally?
Because it should be natural for him. I'm not talking about him doing something that's not even within his range to do, but something that's so close and at hand the character becomes diminished by simply not doing it.
It would be like you having Mr Mxyzptlk powers and say "Man... I really wish I could meet this person."
You with Mr Mxyzptlk powers, you could do anything, go anywhere. The question wouldn't be what can you do, but what couldn't you do.

With Superman. I'm not talking about making him invincible. That's lame and boring to a infinite degree. Rather what I'd like to see, is Superman living up to his full potential. That's it. Nothing more nothing less.

Instead we got this Noperman, to whom everything seems beyond range.
Evolve... No!
Become more proactive... No!
Operate more efficiently... No!
Be less dependent of other characters... No!
Maybe do something different instead of always being a reporter... No!
Can't another woman be as good or better than Lois... No!
Can't both Clark and Superman, save the world in different ways, make a difference in different ways... No!

Almost everything about Superman is no he can't.
Now, I don't know if this is because of the fans that simply are unable to evolve and thus they don't want their favorite character to evolve.
I don't know if it's simply DC's fault, by not hiring a new breed of writers and always betting on the same one's. Those that many times we see getting paid either they do a good job or not. Those that many times only recycle old ideas and sell them as new.
But whatever the case may be. Be it the fans fault or simply everyone's fault, the problem remains... Superman to many people he's more boring than anything else.
Those that have no understanding of the character, call him OP. Which in itself just shows how ignorant they are of the character.
Those that slightly know about the character, call him boring, because to them Superman is this bigger than life character that can't fail, can't lose, can't do no wrong. He's the eternal blue boyscout. And thus he's boring.
Those that have a good understanding of the character... That's where I see the greater divide. They either love the character or hate it. Very few stand in the middle.
Some love him, mostly because of what Superman was and will always be.
Some hate him, exactly because Superman is always the same. Nothing really changes. He doesn't change. Thus he's boring.
Those in the middle, see that Superman is a character that could and should shine as one of the greatest comic book characters of all time. Not just because of what he once represent, but because he continuously paves the way to new heights. But hated it that it isn't that. He doesn't do any of that.
Quoting Batman "The last time you inspired anyone, was when you died"

Batman was being true when he laid it down on Superman then, and if he were to tell him the same thing now, I'd still agree with him.
Superman no longer inspires. Superman lives in the shadow of past feats, of past status quo.

Do a poll with this question "What would you prefer? To have Superman personality or possess Superman's powers?"... The answers should give you, me or anyone a clear picture of just how important Superman really is.
Because this question comes with a trick. A trap if you will. That really separates those that love Superman for what he was, is and can be, from those that only love the character for what he was.

[DochaDocha]

With Superman. I'm not talking about making him invincible. That's lame and boring to a infinite degree. Rather what I'd like to see, is Superman living up to his full potential. That's it. Nothing more nothing less.

What if someone argued that Superman living up to his full potential was essentially invincible?

[Ascended]

What if someone argued that Superman living up to his full potential was essentially invincible?

I think that's where the "Superman is over powered" stuff comes from, actually.

Casuals dont realize that the threats Clark faces are just as powerful (if not moreso) than he is. And it seems to me that a lot of writers can't handle Clark at his full potential, which is why he always gets dumbed down.

[Wri-El]

What if someone argued that Superman living up to his full potential was essentially invincible?

Then we could either agree to disagree, or I could simply say that person was confusing living up to his full potential and living to unimaginable and totally unreal levels.
Like when in Screwattack they said Superman had limitless power. They confused apparent and even hinted limitless potential with limitless power. Two completely different things.
Sometimes just one word changes everything.
In this case for Superman to live to his full potential, he would need to be a systematically evolving character. And not simply a omni-level character that can do everything and nothing can be done to him.
That would put Superman on the same level as The Presence. Something totally ridiculous.

In DC ONE MILLION we got a good example of how Superman got more powerful with time.
What I'm suggesting is basically the same, only instead of tens of thousands of years, that it could be done faster but not always.
After all Silver Age Superman also served as a lesson as to what not do to Superman.

If other characters have evolved Superman can also evolve at a pace reader's can absorb and understand that evolution.
Way better than to have a stagnated character that never really evolves and when he does evolve, DC pulls a Relaunch or a Reboot and ruin everything.

[DochaDocha]

I swear this is not a troll post, but what's the difference between actualizing one's limitless potential, and having limitless power? Is it even possible to actualize limitless potential?

I think from Superman's POV, he'll never be essentially invincible in the universe, because there are a handful of guys more powerful than he is. On the other hand, I think on Earth, if he actually lived up to his vast potential, he would be essentially invincible. Sure, you could say that he's vulnerable weak against Kryptonite (except in various timelines), red sunlight, and magic (I guess in Kingdom Come he actually isn't vulnerable to this or Kryptonite by story's end...), but he would actually find ways to operate around them. It's like how bullets can kill Batman, but the thousands of bullets fired at him have all failed, i.e. Batman found ways to counteract guns. Hence, nobody ever says a guy with a gun will ever beat Batman.