Do you see Superman as a badass?

[Ascended]

I think from Superman's POV, he'll never be essentially invincible in the universe, because there are a handful of guys more powerful than he is. On the other hand, I think on Earth, if he actually lived up to his vast potential, he would be essentially invincible.

Ive always wanted to see a story about "Superman's secret life!" where he has these crazy, stupid huge adventures across dimensions and realities we can barely process, saves the omniverse on a fairly regular basis, and gets up to all these wild things that would make even Morrison's head spin.....and then he goes home to earth and fights Metallo and helps the League fight Kanjar Ro and pretends to struggle with stuff just for the sake of keeping up appearances. The idea being that Clark Kent's secret identity has a secret identity even his League peers dont know about. Always thought that'd be a fun, Silver Age-y story. Not something that should be in continuity, but it'd be a fun little one-off or something.

[Francisco]

I'd be happy with Superman's showings in the Justice League to be limited to a couple of panels in which in one he says: Sorry guys too busy right now. And in the second: He's shown battling some huge threat at the other side of the galaxy.

[Agent Z]

Is it really so hard to envision a Superman doing what I said, naturally?

When he’s never been written as doing them yes
It would be like you having Mr Mxyzptlk powers and say "Man... I really wish I could meet this person."

You with Mr Mxyzptlk powers, you could do anything, go anywhere. The question wouldn't be what can you do, but what couldn't you do.

And this is what yu guys forget; Superman cannot do anything he wants. He has limits, he has weaknesses, he not the most powerful being in the DCU. Fans and writers simply forget this and confuse his real iconography with in universe importance.

With Superman. I'm not talking about making him invincible. That's lame and boring to a infinite degree.

That’s exactly what you’d get if we go with your idea.
Instead we got this Noperman, to whom everything seems beyond range.

Evolve... No!

He went from being slightly stronger than normal humans to being able to shatter a mountain. If he evolved any further, he’d be God.

Become more proactive... No!

Define more proactive.

Operate more efficiently... No!

How much more efficiently does he need to operate?

Be less dependent of other characters... No!

He’s no more dependent of other characters than any other DC hero.

Maybe do something different instead of always being a reporter... No!

Like what? And why does he need to? You don’t hear anyone asking for Bruce or Tony to be something other than CEO vigilantes, so why is Clark getting flak for still being a reporter?

Can't another woman be as good or better than Lois... No!

What does this have to do with anything?

Can't both Clark and Superman, save the world in different ways, make a difference in different ways... No!

He’s been doing that for decades.

Almost everything about Superman is no he can't.
Now, I don't know if this is because of the fans that simply are unable to evolve and thus they don't want their favorite character to evolve.

I think it’s fans focusing more on function rather than form. The things you’re proposing here are less about Superman being a hero and a character and more about him being a power fantasy. This is actually what has been hindering the character not him having any weaknesses. It’s a problem all superheroes suffer from but Superman in particular gets hit with it.

I don't know if it's simply DC's fault, by not hiring a new breed of writers and always betting on the same one's. Those that many times we see getting paid either they do a good job or not. Those that many times only recycle old ideas and sell them as new.

Well I won’t argue that DC does have trouble with producing new stuff.

But whatever the case may be. Be it the fans fault or simply everyone's fault, the problem remains... Superman to many people he's more boring than anything else.

Maybe but not for the reasons you claim. Believe me making Superman more of a Silver Age power fantasy is not going to help him. That’s why people still hate him to begin with.

Those that have no understanding of the character, call him OP. Which in itself just shows how ignorant they are of the character.

And your ideas won’t stop that. I mean, you said your Superman won’t even need the Justice League’s help.

Those that slightly know about the character, call him boring, because to them Superman is this bigger than life character that can't fail, can't lose, can't do no wrong. He's the eternal blue boyscout. And thus he's boring.
Those that have a good understanding of the character... That's where I see the greater divide. They either love the character or hate it. Very few stand in the middle.
Some love him, mostly because of what Superman was and will always be.
Some hate him, exactly because Superman is always the same. Nothing really changes. He doesn't change. Thus he's boring.
Those in the middle, see that Superman is a character that could and should shine as one of the greatest comic book characters of all time. Not just because of what he once represent, but because he continuously paves the way to new heights. But hated it that it isn't that. He doesn't do any of that.

Can we not go here? It isn’t as black and white as you make it seem. There are people who like Superman as he is now and have always liked him.

Quoting Batman "The last time you inspired anyone, was when you died"

I find it hilarious how of all people, it’s Superman fans who take this quote as gospel ignoring the fact that a) it was said in a heated argument when the Trinity’s friendship was going downhill and b) it could not be more false.

Do a poll with this question "What would you prefer? To have Superman personality or possess Superman's powers?"... The answers should give you, me or anyone a clear picture of just how important Superman really is.
Because this question comes with a trick. A trap if you will. That really separates those that love Superman for what he was, is and can be, from those that only love the character for what he was.

There’s another group you’re ignoring; those that only love the character for what he can do. And I have a sneaking suspicion which one you’d fall into.

[Wri-El]

When he’s never been written as doing them yes

Superman is constantly being written doing things he hasn't done before when the need comes up.
So that logic kinda falls all over the place.
The point is about being innovative. Something I haven't seen Superman consistently being for quite some time.
The last people that actually showed Superman doing something original and that actually made sense was Morrison and Snyder.
Morrison when he showed that Superman could use Microwave vision to fry electronic systems. And Snyder when he showed that because Superman couldn't see through led, he went Gamma vision and problem fixed.

And this is what yu guys forget; Superman cannot do anything he wants. He has limits, he has weaknesses, he not the most powerful being in the DCU. Fans and writers simply forget this and confuse his real iconography with in universe importance.

Again you're kinda missing the point here. Writer's have done with Superman what they damm well please. Look at the Godslayer arc and then Justice League and the time conflict they had to face. In the Godslayer arc Superman the moment he's sent to a planet with a red star, his powers go away.
In Justice League, he's in a roomed that we see one of the villains say that he's filling the room with red solar energy and what does Superman say... "You only stopped me from being able to recharge my powers. I'll fight until I can't fight not more."
I used this example as simply being the closest events, I could name dozens where Superman did something he "shouldn't" be able to do. But did them anyway.

That’s exactly what you’d get if we go with your idea.
Instead we got this Noperman, to whom everything seems beyond range.

Where everything seems out of range until he needs it to be in range. Don't forget that very important detail.
What Superman can and can't do is widely open. Too much for my taste.
That's why if nothing else some ground rules should be set that no writer could break.
But no. The writer needs something because Superman needs it, and so Superman gets it, even if it's a one shot. Making sense or no sense.

He went from being slightly stronger than normal humans to being able to shatter a mountain. If he evolved any further, he’d be God.

See. You're seeing adaptation, confusing the need to survive, with evolution.
Superman powers and power levels increased and decreased over time, to match his competition. Not because the character itself was evolving because the executive staff felt he could be better portrait.
More competition arose in the form of new characters both inside and outside DC, and DC did what it had to do to keep Superman in the game.
That's not evolving, that's surviving.

Define more proactive.

Having multiple Fortresses for multiple purposes.
Having a suit that actually does something beyond being flashy.
In the pre-Flashpoint arc "Grounded" he went on a walk about and found some very simple problems that could turn into bigger problems and he fix them without meddling too much.
Stopping problems before they happen, be more present, actually serve as an inspiration, and not simply blow a fuse only when something bad happens to Lois.

How much more efficiently does he need to operate?

The world doesn't begin and ends in Metropolis or the USA. Superman should be a global agent and not a local fixer.
Yes, you can say "But we see him all time helping with floods and earthquakes." and that's true. Superman does his part in that department.
But if you look at the source of his main problems, those that give him hell to pay, are sometimes problems that he lets it happen.
Even those floods and earthquakes I mentioned, how hard would it be for Superman to develop a warning system from the kryptonian technology to alert him to possible and near occurring disasters?
That way acting before things happened. Not necessarily stopping floods or earthquakes, but at least at saving lives.
And if he couldn't be there. Because Superman obviously can't be everywhere at once, he could have it prepared to alert the proper authorities. But he does nothing but being reactive. He reacts to things he shows little interest in stopping them from happening again.

He’s no more dependent of other characters than any other DC hero.

Really... Tell that to the Flash, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Batman, basically all the human Lanterns, and whole bunch of other characters that don't have Batman on speed-dial.

Like what? And why does he need to? You don’t hear anyone asking for Bruce or Tony to be something other than CEO vigilantes, so why is Clark getting flak for still being a reporter?

First of all Bruce and Tony already do too much for what they are. For what their potential is.
You're basically asking why doesn't a firecracker packs the same effect as a nuclear bomb.
First and foremost before he's even Clark he's Kal-El. He was born Kal-El, and that part will always be with him. In fact he does what he does because of Kal-El. If for Clark Kent alone, there would be no Superman.
We all know he's incredibly smart or at least that he can be when good writers write him the way he really is. Then why not go to other fields? Bio research... Study diseases, cures and all that stuff. He could be freelance entrepreneur selling his inventions to the one's that would do the most good with them.
Lex more than once said he could fix all of the Earth's problems if he didn't had to handle Superman.
That's Lex excuse. Which also begs the question... What's Clark's excuse?
You're not trying to tell me that as Clark he does nearly as much as Superman are you?
Because that's... WOW!

What does this have to do with anything?

just an example showing how Superman has actually "evolved".
Every other character have no real soulmates ou pre-destined companions. But Lois... Really! Can't he find himself someone that's also doing her part in the world that simply isn't Lois.
It's been what...? Seventy years of Lois and Clark.
Talk about way overcooked.

He’s been doing that for decades.

And because of that he can't do something else, right.
That's not what the title Man of Tomorrow is supposed to mean.
In a manner it's actually being the opposite.

I think it’s fans focusing more on function rather than form. The things you’re proposing here are less about Superman being a hero and a character and more about him being a power fantasy. This is actually what has been hindering the character not him having any weaknesses. It’s a problem all superheroes suffer from but Superman in particular gets hit with it.

Actually what I'm proposing is that he stops being a fantasy and gets real.
Because no one in these days in age, relates to Superman.
How can anyone relate to someone that still sees the world in black and white.

Maybe but not for the reasons you claim. Believe me making Superman more of a Silver Age power fantasy is not going to help him. That’s why people still hate him to begin with.

We clearly have very different views on what's wrong with Superman.
You say people hate him... I say people don't care enough to hate him.
They simply don't relate to him and thus don't care about Superman.
A few days ago I was letting a nephew of mine borrow some of mine comic books collection. He's almost 13. I was about to hand him some Superman comics and he immediately says "Not Superman. He's boring. Don't you have more Spider-Man or Spawn?" he went to a point he even preferred to read my Deadstroke comics to read Superman.
And he doesn't hate Superman. He simply doesn't relate to him. To what he does. What he stants for.

Can we not go here? It isn’t as black and white as you make it seem. There are people who like Superman as he is now and have always liked him.

Okay. We won't go there. Although I do believe that's just burying the head in the sand.
But it's okay. Let's just slide through this.

I find it hilarious how of all people, it’s Superman fans who take this quote as gospel ignoring the fact that a) it was said in a heated argument when the Trinity’s friendship was going downhill and b) it could not be more false.

It's a good thing one of us finds this funny.
I sure don't.
And it's as real now as it was then.
Superman doesn't inspire people. Not anymore. Not like he used to.
I see more and more people willing to eat up the nonsense seen in DB to waste a minute with Superman.
And many unlike you might believe don't hate Superman. It's like I said before... You'd wish they hated him, because that would at least mean they care enough about him to hate him.
There are new icons that inspire way more than Superman nowadays. Hell, I bet even Deadpool inspires more people than Superman. Even if that inspiration is to not take things so seriously and live life free of things like caring too much.

There’s another group you’re ignoring; those that only love the character for what he can do. And I have a sneaking suspicion which one you’d fall into.

That makes one of us at least.
I personally don't care which category you fit yourself into. You like reading about Superman, that's all I need to know.
Not gonna judge you or give me some very deep insight because of you like to read Superman.
Yes, we got very different views but I'm okay with that.
I don't care and honestly I can't fathom why would anyone care.
DC Comics cares this much about our opinions... 0
They'll do what they always have done. Regardless of what you and I feel about things.

[FishyZombie]

all right, first of all there are dozens of scientist superheroes, Stark, Banner, Pym, Palmer, Richards etc. Ditching the reporter for the scientist will just make him generic. And what's he gonna do cure cancer? They're not gonna have him wipe out any illnesses in the dcu, for the same reason why none of the other scientist I mention ever fix any real world problems. And I can't take the notion that "Deadpool and Deathstroke are more popular, lets make Supes more morally gray so he'll cool more like deadpool" seriously.

[Francisco]

all right, first of all there are dozens of scientist superheroes, Stark, Banner, Pym, Palmer, Richards etc. Ditching the reporter for the scientist will just make him generic. And what's he gonna do cure cancer? They're not gonna have him wipe out any illnesses in the dcu, for the same reason why none of the other scientist I mention ever fix any real world problems. And I can't take the notion that "Deadpool and Deathstroke are more popular, lets make Supes more morally gray so he'll cool more like deadpool" seriously.

He doesn't have to stop being a journalist in order to be a scientist. Clark Kent is a journalist. Superman aka Kal El is the scientist. He doesn't have to wipe out any illnesses in the dcu (at least not real ones like Cancer or Aids) but he can create his own technology or actually be shown having a vast array of knowledge and eagerness to acquire more knowledge. Hell, why cant he cure Cancer and Aids anyway? It's not like the DCU is the real world. It's all fiction. He can do anything.
Morally gray and psychotic murderer aren't the same thing. He can still be a moral paragon and have a backbone. He can still smile to little kids and kick evil people's butts while his eyes glowing red.

Bottom line is Superman is the ultimate superhero. There maybe dozens of other superhero scientists around but non of them are Superman.

[FishyZombie]

He doesn't have to stop being a journalist in order to be a scientist. Clark Kent is a journalist. Superman aka Kal El is the scientist. He doesn't have to wipe out any illnesses in the dcu (at least not real ones like Cancer or Aids) but he can create his own technology or actually be shown having a vast array of knowledge and eagerness to acquire more knowledge. Hell, why cant he cure Cancer and Aids anyway? It's not like the DCU is the real world. It's all fiction. He can do anything.
Morally gray and psychotic murderer aren't the same thing. He can still be a moral paragon and have a backbone. He can still smile to little kids and kick evil people's butts while his eyes glowing red.

Bottom line is Superman is the ultimate superhero. There maybe dozens of other superhero scientists around but non of them are Superman.

That's not what Wri said, he suggested he stop being a reporter. Anyway I'm only marginally interested in the scientist side of Superman, I like him being supersmart, building robots at the fortress, perfect memory, learn faster and easier etc, but there are dozens of other characters who do "scientist superhero" better than Kal. And like I said, even if they did put more emphaisis on that, it'll just draw attention to the problem all such characters face and that's how they never solve any actual problems, just faux syfy problems. On the flipside, there are very few reporter superheroes, smart writers put emphasis on what makes each character unique and special. As far as smiling at little kids and glowing red eyes at evildoers. He already does that, like all the time so.....
And they can't have Superman or any other superhero rid the world of illness because that means they can never do any stories in the dcu where any character gets cancer/aids/whatever ever again, limiting story potential. Same reason they don't do it in Marvel where genius heroes are a dime a dozen.

[Francisco]

That's not what Wri said, he suggested he stop being a reporter. Anyway I'm only marginally interested in the scientist side of Superman, I like him being supersmart, building robots at the fortress, perfect memory, learn faster and easier etc, but there are dozens of other characters who do "scientist superhero" better than Kal. And like I said, even if they did put more emphaisis on that, it'll just draw attention to the problem all such characters face and that's how they never solve any actual problems, just faux syfy problems. On the flipside, there are very few reporter superheroes, smart writers put emphasis on what makes each character unique and special. As far as smiling at little kids and glowing red eyes at evildoers. He already does that, like all the time so.....
And they can't have Superman or any other superhero rid the world of illness because that means they can never do any stories in the dcu where any character gets cancer/aids/whatever ever again, limiting story potential. Same reason they don't do it in Marvel where genius heroes are a dime a dozen.

Viruses and bacteria evolve/mutate all the time. Yay Superman cured aids but now there's a flesh eating martian bacteria. Character can still get infected by life threatening stuff. There reason heroes don't solve real life issues in comics is that old lack of imagination by writers thing.
Never said I agreed with everything Wri says. Pretty sure he doesn't agree with plenty of things I said. lol

Personally I have no problem with Clark being a journalist. I'd only make it more relevant to the character. Journalist Clark should be featured a lot more. He shouldn't be just an excuse for Superman to be around whenever something bad happens. Clark should be active at fixing the world's problems with his writings in way Kal with his kryptonian powers can not.

[FishyZombie]

Viruses and bacteria evolve/mutate all the time. Yay Superman cured aids but now there's a flesh eating martian bacteria. Character can still get infected by life threatening stuff. There reason heroes don't solve real life issues in comics is that old lack of imagination by writers thing.

yes, but then you end up with a bunch of unrelatable syfy illnesses that serve the same purpose. And that comes at a cost, I can't relate to a character dying of martian barnacle poisoning the same way you can to a character suffering from cancer.
I'm also on the controversial mindset that Superman shouldn't step in on these types of things. Take potential accomplishments like curing cancer away from humanity. He should be a protector and role model to humanity, not make them overly dependent on him. Let them make their own milestones.
4Cmk66p.jpg
He starts curing cancer, aids, refreeze the ice caps,give humans flying cars with cold fusion, then that's great. But he'd be proving that Lex Luthor was right all along.
On the flipside, it might make an interesting story where he does cure AIDs, but then wrestles with what to do with it. Maybe he'd actually give it to Lex, so he could take credit for it, but then Lex weaponizes it and boom, there's the story.

[Francisco]

yes, but then you end up with a bunch of unrelatable syfy illnesses that serve the same purpose. And that comes at a cost, I can't relate to a character dying of martian barnacle poisoning the same way you can to a character suffering from cancer.
I'm also on the controversial mindset that Superman shouldn't step in on these types of things. Take potential accomplishments like curing cancer away from humanity. He should be a protector and role model to humanity, not make them overly dependent on him. Let them make their own milestones.
4Cmk66p.jpg
He starts curing cancer, aids, refreeze the ice caps,give humans flying cars with cold fusion, then that's great. But he'd be proving that Lex Luthor was right all along.
On the flipside, it might make an interesting story where he does cure AIDs, but then wrestles with what to do with it. Maybe he'd actually give it to Lex, so he could take credit for it, but then Lex weaponizes it and boom, there's the story.

That's a great point but I liked it better if it was shown in stories instead of as a reason to not tell those stories. Why is bad for Superman to cure diseases and give us advanced tech? Make a stories about it. Not excuses.

[FishyZombie]

That's a great point but I liked it better if it was shown in stories instead of as a reason to not tell those stories. Why is bad for Superman to cure diseases and give us advanced tech? Make a stories about it. Not excuses.

yeah, I'm on board with you there.

[HeroVladimir93]

I voted yes, but there are caveats.

As others have said, it really depends on what your definition of "badass" is. In my opinion, Supeman can absolutely be a badass guy who takes crap from no one and will use his godlike power to brutally crush all opposition if the situation calls for it. I don't, however, think that this is Superman's default setting. He can go there when he needs to, but at his heart Superman is a gentle soul who would prefer to live in a world where he never needs to throw a punch at another living creature.

He'll talk if he thinks talking will be effective. He'll stand there and take a beating, never striking back, if he thinks that's the best way to get his message across. He'll even negotiate or make concessions if he believes that's the right answer to a given situation. If he believes that overwhelming force is the only viable option? He brings it. Big time.

To me, "Badass" is Superman's final measure when all other options have failed or are simply not viable.

Yes, I agree completely.

[stargazer01]

Yes, he can be a total badass and a boss if he needs to. But he is also a really nice guy and very inspirational so it balances out. He can be intimidating and also very friendly. It depends on the situation.

[Jackalope89]

Supes isn't really the kind of person I think of when the term "badass" comes to mind. Not in a bad way, mind, just that he doesn't really fit that profile.

[stargazer01]

I think it depends on what is meant by badass. The word is thrown about so often I am uncertain what is meant when I see or hear it. Sooooooooooo what do you mean when you say "badass"?

For me a 'badass' means a person who can kick all kinds of ass.

That's why Supes is a badass, because he could rule or destroy the world if he wanted. Thankfully, he is a very kind and loving guy, so he doesn't. Instead, he protect us.