OT: The Great Evils of the Third Age (LOTR)

[NK1988]

Besides the Dark Lord Sauron, there was Smaug, Shelob and Durin's Bane. They were the last vestiges of the immense power of the First Age's darkness. Much has been talked about Sauron's relationship with the Balrog, as in if they even had one, but what of the other two? Sauron is noted to have cared very little for Shelob beyond her uses as a guard dog and she in turn didn't give a crap about any War of the Ring...she just ate. And Smaug was dead by the time the War started.

But had Sauron consciously tried to rally together these three great forces - for they would be nigh-unstoppable - could he have persuaded them to his side? Would any of them serve him in his war effort?

[Sharpandpointies]

The Balrog of Moria was, in theory, his subordinate...assuming either of them cared about the old ranking system. If they didn't? Then the Balrog was still his subordinate in power, and probably would have gone to work for him with the idea that it was better than hanging out in a mine.

Smaug....the reason Gandalf set up the whole 'Quest for Erebor' with the dwarves (rather, the reason he decided to help them) was because he was plenty concerned that Sauron had returned and that Smaug would make for an absolutely fearsome 'weapon' in the hands of his old associate, now fallen. I figure it probably wouldn't have been THAT hard for Sauron get Smaug under his sway - between his own power of coercion and the offer of plenty more goodies for his hoard, Smaug probably would have only been too happy to toast an army or two for the Dark Lord.

Probably would have been some personality clashes - ego, and all - but I expect Sauron to come out on top, there.

Shelob would have been rather pointless. Compared to the other two she wasn't anything truly special, and her use...well, I suppose he could have sent her into Minas Tirith at night and she could have set herself up as a nigh-unstoppable problem in the city. At night. But as a creature of primal habits and hunger, she wasn't terribly useful in a long-term war. Nor, I suspect, could Sauron actually control her if she got beyond his reach.

[NK1988]

Shelob would have been rather pointless. Compared to the other two she wasn't anything truly special, and her use...well, I suppose he could have sent her into Minas Tirith at night and she could have set herself up as a nigh-unstoppable problem in the city. At night. But as a creature of primal habits and hunger, she wasn't terribly useful in a long-term war. Nor, I suspect, could Sauron actually control her if she got beyond his reach.

I think Shelob is underrated by some. She's a descendant of frickin' Ungoliant and the omniscient narrator says that not even Turin could have wounded her. Saying a First Age Man couldn't hurt her places her well above pretty much anything in Middle-earth with the exception of the other evils and the Istari. And the Elflords, forgot about them.


Also would the Ring-less Sauron have the power to command the Balrog? By virtue of both being Maiar, they are peers. But Durin's Bane is at its peak while Sauron is greatly diminished.

[Sharpandpointies]

I think Shelob is underrated by some. She's a descendant of frickin' Ungoliant and the omniscient narrator says that not even Turin could have wounded her. Saying a First Age Man couldn't hurt her places her well above pretty much anything in Middle-earth with the exception of the other evils and the Istari. And the Elflords, forgot about them.

For starters, that just makes her powerful against anything within reach. Being a descendant of Ungoliant is fairly meaningless - it's what she can do that is important. And as for the narrator stating she was unhurtable by Túrin, I've always found that to be some exaggeration - Sam, armed with all of Sting (which, while being made in Gondolin, is nothing more than an elf-dagger of no great repute and not some terrible, named weapon created with the greatest of materials by one of the greatest weapon-smiths ever to walk the face of Arda) managed to slice off her feet and cut open her belly (belly a weak point but still).

Túrin was strong enough to manhandle elf-lords, and carried Gurthang, the Iron of Death, possibly the most deadly sword in the entire history of Middle Earth (barring, say, something Eönwë used). I have zero issue with him chopping into Shelob's 'back' armour.

But let's say he can't.

There's simply hacking off her legs (if Sam can slice off her claws, well...I expect a bunch of people could do the same). There's blinding her which, again, a short hobbit armed with a dagger managed to do (so I assume a bunch of dudes with spears should be capable of SOMETHING).

She's hell on wheels in the dark, in her own area where her power is greatest. But she's not nearly on the level of Sauron, Smaug, the Balrog, the Witch-King, anything like that. And we know the light is a serious problem for her (so how does she then travel?). And that normal people CAN fight against her, quite successfully, given the right circumstances.

Also would the Ring-less Sauron have the power to command the Balrog? By virtue of both being Maiar, they are peers. But Durin's Bane is at its peak while Sauron is greatly diminished.

All Maiar are not created equal - it's pretty explicit that some are more powerful than others.

And if we're going by feats and presentation on 'who is more powerful, Balrog or Sauron', Gandalf the Grey going full-bore on the Balrog managed to kill it before dying himself. That puts them roughly equal. Gandalf the White - more powerful than Gandalf the Grey - flat-out notes that Sauron is his better. Additionally, Sauron isn't really that diminished by the time of Lord of the Rings.

But I'm not saying Sauron would take control of the Balrog. No, I believe that the Balrog would willingly work for Sauron. I mean...why not? It's that or sit on its fiery ass in a mine. With Sauron, it gets to be Number II (better than the Witch-King, who really is an extension of Sauron's will more than anything). It gets to lord over stuff. It really didn't have a problem being Number II in the past (or worse - it ranked under Morgoth, Sauron, then its own boss Gothmog, and probably Glaurung as well).

I don't really see the Balrog saying 'No, I'll contest you for control of your lands and peoples, lands and peoples I would never be able to control or use as you do...oh, and it's a contest I'll probably lose.'

Mileage, it varies.

[The Dork Knight]

I don't think being subordinate to Morgoth or Sauron was directly related to power levels. It's pretty clear that by the end a lot of people are more powerful than Morgoth in his own army . Yet he still ruled them all with his "will"

Sauron likewise never came across as all that far above Balrogs or especially Smaug but he might still have "controlled" then with his greater "will" so to speak

[Sharpandpointies]

We've discussed this in another thread, and my feelings haven't changed since then. Sauron controls armies, he creates artifacts of immense power, he shrugs off lightning sent by the Valar, he defeats elf-lords in spell-slinging contests, he shifts shape and fights the good fight with Huan (given Huan's feats, this is impressive), he's a 'sorcerer of terrible power', etc. I'm pretty cool with him being above Gothmog in power (which was the discussion in the other thread), and Gothmog is above the other Balrogs. Especially with Tolkien stating that Sauron was the greatest and most terrible of Morgoth's servants, and the 'Gandalf the Grey ties with Balrog, Gandalf the White weaker than Sauron' thing (which puts the Balrog two steps below Sauron in terms of that kind of figuring).

On top of that, we have Glorfindel taking out one of the Balrogs (a peer of the Balrog of Moria) in a blaze of glory. Sauron? Not someone Glorfindel is taking on solo.

And Morgoth - being a dude who valued strength, power, control, all of that good stuff - seems pretty unlikely to choose someone as his second-in-command who ISN'T the next most strong guy in his group.

Note - I'm not talking 'physical strength', I'm talking the whole package of 'how mighty is this guy?'

As for people in his own army being more strong than Morgoth, we've discussed that as well. Your feelings on the evidence run one way, mine run another, never shall the twain meet, etc.

[The Dork Knight]

I'm actually agreeing with you that Sauron would have "controlled" these beings regardless of power levels on this thread though ....

[Sharpandpointies]

Clarity, clarity.... ^_^

[NK1988]

For starters, that just makes her powerful against anything within reach. Being a descendant of Ungoliant is fairly meaningless - it's what she can do that is important. And as for the narrator stating she was unhurtable by Túrin, I've always found that to be some exaggeration - Sam, armed with all of Sting (which, while being made in Gondolin, is nothing more than an elf-dagger of no great repute and not some terrible, named weapon created with the greatest of materials by one of the greatest weapon-smiths ever to walk the face of Arda) managed to slice off her feet and cut open her belly (belly a weak point but still).

You are remembering incorrectly.

But Shelob was not as dragons are, no softer spot had she save only her eyes. Knobbed and pitted with corruption was her age-old hide, but ever thickened from within with layer on layer of evil growth. The blade scored it with a dreadful gash, but those hideous folds could not be pierced by any strength of men, not though Elf or Dwarf should forge the steel or the hand of Beren or of Túrin wield it. She yielded to the stroke, and then heaved up the great bag of her belly high above Sam's head. Poison frothed and bubbled from the wound. Now splaying her legs she drove her huge bulk down on him again. Too soon. For Sam still stood upon his feet, and dropping his own sword, with both hands he held the elven-blade point upwards, fending off that ghastly roof; and so Shelob, with the driving force of her own cruel will, with strength greater than any warrior's hand, thrust herself upon a bitter spike. Deep, deep it pricked, as Sam was crushed slowly to the ground.

Shelob's own unrivaled strength got her impaled.

All Maiar are not created equal - it's pretty explicit that some are more powerful than others.

And if we're going by feats and presentation on 'who is more powerful, Balrog or Sauron', Gandalf the Grey going full-bore on the Balrog managed to kill it before dying himself. That puts them roughly equal. Gandalf the White - more powerful than Gandalf the Grey - flat-out notes that Sauron is his better. Additionally, Sauron isn't really that diminished by the time of Lord of the Rings.

I realize not all Maia are created equal and Sauron is well above the istari for example. But Gandalf says most of Sauron's power is in the Ring. Tolkien metaphysics are a bit iffy but how can Sauron without the Ring be even close to as powerful as he used to be?


As for the Balrog's loyalty, you seem to think it's easily bought but I'm not so sure. Durin's Bane fled and hid after the War of Wrath and presumably it has hibernated for a long time to await its master's return. That's the thing - the Balrogs serve Morgoth, no one else. Sauron used to be Morgoth's second but that was a long time ago. Sauron now fancies himself a god and the new Dark Lord of Midle-earth.

Would Durin's Bane buy into this? Would a former servant of the greatest "Dark Power" in the land be willing to settle for something so much less? Remember, it was Morgoth's power and vision that seduced Sauron originally. I would imagine it was the same for all the other Maia. Sauron does not wield anywhere near that level of influence.

[Sharpandpointies]

You are remembering incorrectly.

But Shelob was not as dragons are, no softer spot had she save only her eyes. Knobbed and pitted with corruption was her age-old hide, but ever thickened from within with layer on layer of evil growth. The blade scored it with a dreadful gash, but those hideous folds could not be pierced by any strength of men, not though Elf or Dwarf should forge the steel or the hand of Beren or of Túrin wield it. She yielded to the stroke, and then heaved up the great bag of her belly high above Sam's head. Poison frothed and bubbled from the wound. Now splaying her legs she drove her huge bulk down on him again. Too soon. For Sam still stood upon his feet, and dropping his own sword, with both hands he held the elven-blade point upwards, fending off that ghastly roof; and so Shelob, with the driving force of her own cruel will, with strength greater than any warrior's hand, thrust herself upon a bitter spike. Deep, deep it pricked, as Sam was crushed slowly to the ground.

Shelob's own unrivaled strength got her impaled.

I'm talking about that part you have, right at the start -

"The blade scored it with a dreadful gash-"

Which leads to.

"Poison frothed and bubbled from the wound."

Tolkien can talk about how Sam couldn't really hurt it, but the fact is that a slash penetrated far enough to have her bleeding poison. He can talk about how Túrin couldn't slice through Shelob, but he's then not taking into account Turin's sword, which is superior, in fact, to the dagger that cuts iron like cloth and easily sliced through Morgoth's own crown; if Sam's slash can open her up sufficiently to make her gout poison, I'm of the opinion that Túrin swinging the Deathiron is going to do a lot, lot worse, given he's twenty times the warrior that Sam is (edit: twenty is too small a number...) with a sword that's far, far superior to Sting. And it's somewhat ridiculous, if her 'folds' are so thick that a slash, that rips them open to the point where they're bleeding poison, doesn't hit anything vital, but Sam holding up his dagger can pierce directly into her.

And it's not the first time a narrator has contradicted themselves.

But again, setting that aside - because it's an unnecessary argument - Shelob is still completely vulnerable to having her legs cut off and her eyes poked out. If Sam - a little guy with a what amounts to an elf-sized dagger - can manage this with his reach, them I'm pretty sure that a large group of soldiers with spears and axes are going to make her pretty miserable. That's not even taking into account Aragorn with Andúril, for example, who is about ten times the fighter Sam is(edit: again, far too small a number....), has a special blade himself, and has bucketloads more reach.

Outside of her darkness, on a battlefield, she would have been in serious trouble.

I realize not all Maia are created equal and Sauron is well above the istari for example. But Gandalf says most of Sauron's power is in the Ring. Tolkien metaphysics are a bit iffy but how can Sauron without the Ring be even close to as powerful as he used to be?

There's some discussion in the letters - I'll see if I can find them - about Sauron, his power with and without the Ring, etc. Sauron, without his Ring, isn't hamstrung. At all. WITH his Ring, his power is multiplied.

Ah, here we are. Letter 131, Tolkien's own words.

"While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in ‘rapport’ with himself: he was not ‘diminished’."

So no, Sauron sans Ring isn't weakened. It's just that WITH his Ring he becomes much more. And if his Ring is destroyed, that power he put into it is also destroyed, leaving him basically nothing.

As for the Balrog's loyalty, you seem to think it's easily bought but I'm not so sure. Durin's Bane fled and hid after the War of Wrath and presumably it has hibernated for a long time to await its master's return. That's the thing - the Balrogs serve Morgoth, no one else. Sauron used to be Morgoth's second but that was a long time ago. Sauron now fancies himself a god and the new Dark Lord of Midle-earth.

Would Durin's Bane buy into this? Would a former servant of the greatest "Dark Power" in the land be willing to settle for something so much less? Remember, it was Morgoth's power and vision that seduced Sauron originally. I would imagine it was the same for all the other Maia. Sauron does not wield anywhere near that level of influence.

Let's say you're right (I say this because we're getting into opinion on the psychology of the Balrog, and I don't think either of us can come up with factual evidence to support our points of view... ^_^).

So the Balrog's choices then are as follows:

1. Sit on its duff in Moria while Sauron takes over, and when (most likely) Sauron wins, Sauron will eventually come anyway and say 'Hey Bob, remember me? I'm running the show, now. You have a choice - work for me, or...well, I'm Sauron so I figure anyone not WITH me is against me.' Which is bad for Bob.

2. Move AGAINST Sauron, building his own army and trying to take control. Clearly this isn't going to proceed terribly well, given Sauron's power in comparison to the Balrog, Sauron's control over his armies in comparison to the Balrog, Sauron's support staff (Ringwraiths) versus the Balrog's...nothing.

3. Join up with Sauron as '#2, with all of the benefits and privileges the #2 guy in Middle Earth will get.

Those are its choices when Sauron sends an RSVP.

For me, it's pretty clear the Balrog is going to go with #3. But mileage, it might vary.