In Your Face Jam - Jul 9, 2014

[Peter Porker]

Also, here's another article from the OP, who apologizes for starting the hastag out of anger and pointing out that the criticism was never only about Cap. America #22: http://www.themarysue.com/rick-remender-marvel-hashtag/

[Ravin' Ray]

I just want to point out that the person who started the hastag received death and rape threats and I don't understand how that isn't worse than Remenders situation:

This is the sort of situation that led to Jonah Weiland rebooting the forums to make sure nothing of that happens again on CBR. And if I may add, such threats directed at her warrant official investigation. Don't hesitate to inform authorities if you receive any reliable information regarding the identities of those perpetrators.

[Exciter]

Here's an article about why Remender got criticized in the first place, so that you people have a little bit of context: http://www.therainbowhub.com/why-ric...needs-to-stop/,

"You people"?

[mugiwara]

In B4 the new CBR Forums reboot.

You know whose names I don't see in the above article? GW Bridge and Gateway. They had quite pathetic deaths, but not a single crap seems to be given. It's all about Sharon Carter, who at least managed to have a heroic death.
It's strange that an article that accuses Remender of racism among other things keeps ranting about the white girl death, but doesn't have a single word for the black muslim dude and the arboriginal dude.

To put some things in perspective, here are established characters Remender killed and who didn't come back (so I don't count Rogue and SW, because everybody knew they were coming back at the end of the arc):
GW Bridge
Ant Man (the best one)
Gateway
Almost all of the AOA X-Men
Warren Worthington
Sharon Carter
Avalanche
I possibly forgot some characters, since Remender is quite bloodthirsty (is Daken alive now?), but he doesn't seem to target women more than men.

[tsaimelemoni]

I can’t understand how white male authors that “take a defensive position” when a smear campaign designed to get their friend and colleague fired on the basis that he wrote a beloved character to be a statutory rapist when he categorically, indisputably did not do so could in any way be construed as a form of insensitivity to actual rape victims or women in general.

White men are too privileged to have valid opinions about things. I guess.

Men (and not just white ones) certainly face sexual assault/abuse in different manner/frequency than women, but in this case I don't think the issues presented by CA #23 simply come down to gender perspective.

[kayfabetravis]

On the surface, this is not a popular thing to say: not every opinion is valid. Or worth respecting.

We live in a time where there is a perception that everyone’s opinion is like a snowflake, unique and beautiful. But rational discussion doesn’t work in this model. There are people that believe that they can fly using magical powers in their mind. We don’t humor these people; we protect themselves from self-inflicted danger and we make sure their insanity doesn’t harm others.

Someone who denies facts and reality in order to bring attention to themselves and cause trouble for others are not people that need to be humored. Once you open up the door to every single opinion needing to be weighed against the total volume of every aspect of its history you are wandering into worthless territories. If you live in a world where every opinion has some element of truth, it takes away your ability to be really objective about anything. If Hitler once was kind to a puppy it doesn’t mean his later acts in life are somehow less abhorrent. If Gandi was rude to a woman at some point in his life, it doesn’t make him a misogynist whose lifelong good deeds are negated.

Everyone in the world has done some level of great and terrible things in their lives. In this case, the argument of having to balance everything that Remender has ever written or done to “judge” this one topic is ridiculous. If you want to make a case about Remender’s overall work? Sure. Judge everything. But this was an attempt to smear someone over a falsehood.

Period.

If you want to debate the merits of Remender as a writer overall, by all means go forward. But this case is ridiculous and without merit. It isn’t worthy of consideration because it is patently false.

Which brings me back to the beginning. Not every opinion is worthwhile. Not every voice is worth listening to when the voice is spouting lies. Or nonsense. Or craziness. It doesn’t make you a bad person to admit this. At some point in life you have to make decisions and live with those decisions. Perpetually leaving all doors open gets you nowhere… and isn’t even honest to yourself.

In this aspect? Jet Black is at least 23 years old. It’s canon. It’s printed. There are no gray areas. It’s clear.

Another point? Sharon Carter may or may not be dead. Whenever a female character dies it doesn’t automatically mean they were “fridged”… which is perhaps the most overused term in the industry that few actually understand. But regardless, unless somewhere here has Remender’s long-term plan plan leaked (and if so, please post the spoilers as I’d be curious where it’s all going) I think it’s a little silly to call this one. Odds say that Carter is alive and well… not just because comic history tells us so, but because Remender’s own history of writing tends to provide these bait-and-switch moments with characters.

I like Remender’s writing. Mostly because it feels unique and different, and I appreciate it. If you don’t like it, I don’t think you’re a dummy unless you buy it just so you can complain about it. To use an older internet term: YMMV.

[kayfabetravis]

By the way; the other part of this story? The part where the original author claims she's gotten rape threats from her original article? Of course this is ridiculous and shouldn't happen. Of course this isn't appropriate or funny or tolerable or decent or any number of things. Threatening someone for their opinion isn't worth respecting at all.

But it is separate from the original topic. Writing something foolish and wrong is still foolish and wrong. If some terrible person wanders along and compounds a dumb article with an even dumber response it doesn't make the original article somehow smarter or valid by comparison. I have sympathy for someone who was threatened by violence. I don't have sympathy for their original foolish and incorrect statements. We all live in a world where both things can be true at the same time.

[toddx77]

http://www.therainbowhub.com/why-ric...needs-to-stop/

After reading her article it feels like she is just looking for stuff to be mad at and over doing it. Calling it racist because Steve's dad was a drunk and Irish? So because he is Irish he cannot be drunk and abusive? Remender has to choose something else for his origin? So if we have black Super Villains now they are always going to be a stereotype that all black people are criminals? What about if there is an Asian character piloting some type of ship and mess up crashing the ship for whatever reason? Is that going to be a stereotype of all Asians are bad drivers? It has already been established that Steve Rogers comes from Irish parents and if Remender wanted to make Joseph Rogers and abusive alcoholic then nothing should have stopped him. Not to mention a lot of men weren't the nicest back then and did drink a lot.

As for Sharon dying, yeah we all hate it when a character we like dies but to want Remender fired over it and bringing sexism into the mix is pathetic. Again it feels like he is just looking for something to get mad at. It would be like if someone said Big Daddy's death in Kick Ass meant single men couldn't take care of a daughter because they are too reckless and don't think ahead. Or that with Black Canary returning to the League of Shadows with Nyssa, Moria Queen dead and Thea gone Arrow is sexist because they got rid of 3 female characters, one of which is a superhero, and The Atom, a male superhero, will be joining the cast in the fall. Not to mention his entire run could easily be undone when a new writer comes in. The JMS runs of Amazing Spider-Man and Thor were pretty much undone when new writers came in and when Jeff Lemire started writing Green Arrow he pretty much undid issues 1-16.

When she address Havok's speech in Uncanny Avengers as it being the same as telling people of minority groups to assimilate she says "(Havok, who just so happens to be a white, blonde-haired, blue-eyed male who looks just like any other human on the street) which just seems like trying to bait people into writing her hate mail. She says Remender is being racist by having Joesph Rogers be an Irish drunk wife beater, but says something like this? All white, blonde hair, and blue eyed people look the same? Because Havok is white, has blonde hair, and blue eyes he isn't good enough to address people on mutant issues? You might as well say Batman promotes law breaking and not following the rules if you feel you have good enough reason and can get away with it.

[Lady Warp Spasm]

Wow. I am not a Remender fan and haven't read his Cap since issue 5. But even I knew that the whole dimension Z thing was spread over a span of at least 10 years. He's done some things to shock purposely but to even bring something as horrendous as rape into the picture, no I do not think Rick would go there, especially since the time lapse was made very clear.

Everyone has an opinion but it is painful to see other people reacting violently to one person's post. And it is equally awful this girl is receiving rape and death threats now. I just do not understand where fandom is falling lately.

[Teek]

I'm by no means a fan of Rick Remender, but I'm even less of a fan of these outrage addicted social justice warriors disparately hunting for something to be offended by. They do more harm than good by directing attention from and alienating people away from legitimate causes.

[Guest_1001]

I'm no fan of Remender but I'm glad that nothing came of this "movement", if it can even be called that. Tumblr is a ridiculous, unpleasant place at the best of times but "fire comic book writer because fictional 23-year-old has consensual sex with male character" may be the stupidest thing the internet has ever conceived.

And that's a long list.

From my reading, as someone that's never had to worry about date rape, or having something slipped into my unattended drink, or just walking home alone late at night

Brett, men are far more likely to be the victims of violent crime than women are. When you're walking home late at night, you're a lot more likely to be attacked than a woman.

Facts aren't your enemy and I've never liked the mindset that the people who supposedly support women the most are the ones telling me what fragile victims they are all the time.

After reading her article it feels like she is just looking for stuff to be mad at and over doing it.

Yep, this. It actually seems like she's doing pretty well following creating the hashtag. All the new publicity and complaints about abuse (for trying to get someone fired, incidentally, so I have zero sympathy for her), she could be the new Anita Sarkeesian.

[Joe S. Walker]

Perhaps the "wagon-circling" is because Remender's colleagues think that some crank online could get fixated on one of them next.

[Prisoner 6655321]

I'm not going to lie. I haven't been reading Capitan America for some time so most of the specifics of the current run are lost on me. From what I understand from reading this thread, this is probably not the most offensive thing since sliced bread. Personally, (while this is no justification for real life statutory rape... we're talking about science fiction situations) I think that the idea of emotional age is probably more important than biological age. If a (fictional) child is put in an aging machine, adding some years to their life in a span of minutes, they're just a child in a grown ups body and having relations with them would be pretty unethical. If (fictional)child, send them into another dimension where time works different and they spend some number of years there where they develop physically and emotionally but return in what seems to be only a short amount of time in this dimension. It's another story, I suppose.

If it seems that people can sometimes get up in arms about issues like this then maybe you should take some time to look at the actual statistics. The number of sexual assaults not reported vs reported vs. the number of sexual predators convicted and then the average sentence. Take a look at those crime rates in institutional environments (school, college, military). Take some time to reflect on what those numbers actually mean in terms of human life and suffering caused. Add to this the amount of victim blaming that happens in these crimes when people say stuff like “she shouldn't have been wearing that” or “she shouldn't have been drinking so much” and it's all pretty terrifying.

So, I read the article that this was all based on and … well, it's still pretty much the same. Not that they need any “excuse” I wouldn't be entirely surprised that this person, Eve, probably has some pretty good real life reasons to be upset about whatever social issues she's chosen to go on about. Even if every point she made isn't enough to blow your mind, they're still worth pointing out if only to bring into view that the issues exist.

As for the issues of privilege which she goes on for a bit, there's some truth to it all but privilege is a complicated and patchwork issue. Who's more privileged, socially? A straight man of mostly European decent who grew up in a impoverished situation with few opportunities or a straight man of mostly African decent who grew up with a upper-middle class family situation and was afforded many opportunities?A straight woman or a gay man? It's not a contest and it's not comparable. Social privilege is real but nearly imperceivable by those who have it because they are expecting it to look like advantages they have rather than social disadvantages held by others. You may experience your privilege in some environments and not others and just because you've got some doesn't mean that you've had anything handed to you... I'm ranting...

In short, I think Eve's grasping for straws a bit but her heart is in the right place. We need more people analyzing media like this for these reasons. To those in the industry who jumped aggressively to Rick's defense; this may be, in some ways an issue of actual human being vs. outrage over fictional events but when those fictional events could possibly enforce oppressive social tendencies (and if you don't think this is happening re-read the posts in this thread and I hope you can see what's wrong with a few of them) then it kinda becomes an issue of “what's a good story” vs. “ what's good for the real world”. From what I understand, maybe Eve may be a bit off base with this one (like I said I haven't been reading the books) but people ought to be evaluating comics like this. This isn't the same as someone being upset because the story just didn't turn out how they wanted. These are real issues. Those of you who were offended over this probably ought to really think about why and maybe if you're part of the problem.... And you know, if you are, don't cry over it just change your stance.

[Shawn Kane]

I haven't liked Remender's take on Captain America but since he's my favorite character, I continue to read the book with the hope that there is a good wrap up to his run. The scene didn't bother me because of the passage of time in Dimension Z where everyone aged but I think the scene was pointless other than Remender deciding "I'm gonna have Falcon and Jet have sex".

[Zartan's Brother]

I'm not much of a fan of Rick Remender's work. I like his Uncanny X-Force run up through the end of the Dark Angel Saga, but I've been highly critical of the rest of his work. I think he's a formula writer who regurgitates many of the same story beats, and he leans too heavily on killing characters for shock value (including my favorite Marvel Comics character, Eric O'Grady). That said, Remender didn't depict rape. There's no room for interpretation here, especially since she confirms her age before anything happens. The girl who started the hashtag and intentionally misrepresented the scene ought to be embarrassed over how she's acted, but she's clearly only sorry that it brought her negative attention, from what I can derive from her non-apology. I hope that in the future she practices a bit more critical thinking before flipping the "social outrage" switch and attacking anyone's livelihood based on her willful misinterpretation of what she reads. I also hope that anyone who threatened her gets caught and charged accordingly. Ugliness does not justify further awful actions.

It's sad that a genre built on people selflessly committing heroic acts has attracted so many fans who act like degenerates when they disagree with creators or fellow fans. How hard is it to show some respect and decency when approaching these topics?