Superman Wonder Woman #10 Spoilers/Discussion

[Blacksun]

The theme of this issue seemed to be how men are the active agents. Steel steers the ship. Brainiac pulls the strings. Superman must save the day. Women exist to clean up the messes and prepare the way for their menfolk.

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I didn't had noticed this...now that you said, it's all on the issue. it's all problematic when we take count in this issue not passing bechdel test. like...now I'm feeling nonplussed about this issue

[Xarek]

There is some ambiguity and Soule is a writer who rarely makes sloppy mistakes. He drops threads and circles back to them. Unless the Corben thing is a retcon by editorial. I think there could be something to be said they could both be trying to to keep Brainiac off their real intentions. There is the same parallel going on with Clark too being mentally attacked and Doomsday who is trying to make Clark doubt himself and insinuating he's only going back to save Lois and Clark says not only her but the whole planet. Clark is struggling to keep himself from being overwhelmed, he shows concern for Lana but the way he spoke to Steel....no way real Clark would speak that way to his friend.
SuperDoomsday is having a ball though.

You noticed that too huh? I don't know why but that bit bothered me. First Superdoom says: "You left it all behind--friends, that stupid job, her". And I thought OK, he means Diana. But then, at the very end of the issue, Soule brings it out again with "save her". And her in this context can only mean Lois. So why did he bring up the interconnection? What's its purpose in the story?

[Xarek]

A bit oddly paced, but thematically it's a pretty genius issue, and with a lot of pathos.

The whole issue is filled with good men and women, tragically subsumed by something other -- Superman and Doomsday, Lois and Brainiac, Corben and Brianiac and Lois, Zor El and Cyborg Superman, even Wonder Woman and "War".

Likewise, I enjoyed the juxtaposition between Lois and Wonder Woman, thought it was an interesting study of both.

Yep. That theme is there but it required a much better artist to transform that theme into imagery in the pages.

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Would you prefer if I just said the conversation Lois and Diana had did a disservice to them both and was a missed opportunity because it took two women (a heroic civilian, a supervillain, and a superhero) who had plenty of other things to discuss, and instead made almost the entire conversation about the men in their lives, and because the conversation did this, it is a failure of Soule's to avoid writing that has sexist elements or, perhaps said differently, treats his female characters with respect?
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You are right about it being a missed opportunity. But I completely disagree in the notion that Soule treated the characters with disrespect or in a sexist fashion. And I can't place the blame on him alone. The issue seems rushed and too stretched out. There are several indications of story tampering here. Maybe Pak had something set up for Lois in the AC Annual 3 that required Soule to insert the Corben variable into the story.

[misslane]

In your and Blacksun's opinion.

Yes, it is my opinion. Do you have an alternative one or something to dispute my interpretation?

You are right about it being a missed opportunity. But I completely disagree in the notion that Soule treated the characters with disrespect or in a sexist fashion. And I can't place the blame on him alone. The issue seems rushed and too stretched out. There are several indications of story tampering here. Maybe Pak had something set up for Lois in the AC Annual 3 that required Soule to insert the Corben variable into the story.

So, at this point, you've reacted to several problems with the issue which you or others have pointed out by placing your unwavering faith in the creator. If something went wrong with the issue, it must be partly someone else's fault; Soule could have done a good job but forces beyond his control stopped his genius. Exculpating Soule doesn't change the final product or have any bearing on the actual criticism. If he was forced to incorporate Corben, he should be capable of consulting with Pak and talented enough to include Corben in a way that makes sense. Which is all presuming that outside interference was even an issue and not something you've fanwanked to address the questionable focus on Corben and Superman during Wonder Woman's showdown with Lois/Brainiac.

Just a few issues ago, Soule appealed to the meddling of others to excuse the baffling decision to present Wonder Woman without a disguise as she interacted with several people in Clark's life. This was the same issue Soule thought it made perfect sense for Wonder Woman to forget that Clark had an apartment or to look there, because he seemed determined to develop Diana's single-mindedness as a flaw of hers. The same Soule who had Diana learn about Lois Lane's glowing eye problem two issues ago, had Diana speak to Superman an issue ago (after learning about the coma communication from Lana) and not warn him about that after he cautioned her about Lois being in danger, and had her in this issue do several things that defy comprehension (e.g. ask Lois if she's okay and in need of help, let Brainiac get away). The man's execution is riddled with errors that repeatedly make Diana behave like an idiot. All the while, when she does interact with Lois or with Hessia, the topic almost always focuses on Superman and her relationship with him in plots that heavily revolve around Superman and his supporting cast. I'd say that is pretty problematic.

[AlexanderLuthor]

I have no such faith, sorry.



Would you prefer if I just said the conversation Lois and Diana had did a disservice to them both and was a missed opportunity because it took two women (a heroic civilian, a supervillain, and a superhero) who had plenty of other things to discuss, and instead made almost the entire conversation about the men in their lives, and because the conversation did this, it is a failure of Soule's to avoid writing that has sexist elements or, perhaps said differently, treats his female characters with respect?

The Bechdel Test was designed as a way to standardize the recognition and evaluation of writing for women or fiction more generally, but it isn't the be all, end all. One can analyze/criticize writing for its sexism without applying the test while at the same time addressing some of the criteria the test covers. So, if citing the Bechdel Test bothers you, lets forget it for the sake of argument. Do you feel there were any problems with the references and usage of Corben and Superman throughout the conversation between Lois and Diana?

I'm completely confused by your comment. I haven't taken anything Lois has done or said at face value since she was "infected" by Brainiac. It was a crappy turn for the character, a 60s style, campy plot twist that has lasted over a year. Reading over the issue again, that conversation is pretty obviously between Diana and Brainiac. Very little that comes out of Lois's mouth would make sense or be in character if said by her consciousness

[Spair]

You noticed that too huh? I don't know why but that bit bothered me. First Superdoom says: "You left it all behind--friends, that stupid job, her". And I thought OK, he means Diana. But then, at the very end of the issue, Soule brings it out again with "save her". And her in this context can only mean Lois. So why did he bring up the interconnection? What's its purpose in the story?

I just assumed the 'her' both times were about Diana. Doomday was very much present within Clark when he told Diana he come to her. I guess we will have to see.

[misslane]

I'm completely confused by your comment. I haven't taken anything Lois has done or said at face value since she was "infected" by Brainiac. It was a crappy turn for the character, a 60s style, campy plot twist that has lasted over a year. Reading over the issue again, that conversation is pretty obviously between Diana and Brainiac. Very little that comes out of Lois's mouth would make sense or be in character if said by her consciousness

Um, that's just another layer to the problem. My issue with the focus on boys has nothing to do with whether it's in character for Lois or not (it's not). My problem is nether Lois nor Brainiac should have been written to drag Corben back from the dead just to have Diana and Brainiac (via Lois) go back and forth about their respective male champions. That this is all the result of a dragged out plot that's removed real Lois from comics for a year and replaced her with a poor substitute just makes the whole thing even worse; the least one can say for Soule is he didn't create this crappy plotline for Lois, as that's all Lobdell's fault.

[Sacred Knight]

what themes? like unhealth love?



yeah brainiac now is a soap opera villain.

I think t only cheapend the comic and iconic characters like lois and WW

Yeah, because only soap operas have villains who use their enemies' emotions against them.

In any case, I can appreciate fans not caring for the Corben wrench to things. But in regards to Wonder Woman, I find it rather puzzling to read this title, which going in one knows one of its cornerstones IS the fact that the two stars are in a romantic relationship, and be mad when that layer is used. Creating a till-now non-existent dynamic between Lois and John to contrast it to? Out of left field, totally agree with that. But utilizing the theme entirely does not suddenly make their encounter a catfight, I'm sorry.

[Sacred Knight]

You noticed that too huh? I don't know why but that bit bothered me. First Superdoom says: "You left it all behind--friends, that stupid job, her". And I thought OK, he means Diana. But then, at the very end of the issue, Soule brings it out again with "save her". And her in this context can only mean Lois. So why did he bring up the interconnection? What's its purpose in the story?

I didn't interpret it that way at all. I don't see any reason to think he's not talking about Diana both times.

[misslane]

Yeah, because only soap operas have villains who use their enemies' emotions against them.

But Brainiac even said that Wonder Woman was irrelevant and made Lois stop what she was doing and move on to another phase of the plan. So it wasn't Brainiac, the villain, who was bringing up boyfriends, it was the Lois he's confused and twisted. Furthermore, Diana didn't have to play into it. She didn't have to just stand there while Brainiac left because she was waiting for her man to prove him wrong about leaving her behind. Of all the things the psionic blast revealed, Brainiac chooses to lean more on the boyfriend emotional stuff than the stuff related to Diana's mother, for instance. So, maybe Soule could have made Brainiac the more cold and calculating villain he is, and have him get to Diana some other way or at least provide enough balance in the interaction so that other issues or means of attack were used.

[Sacred Knight]

I didn't read it as Diana staying there waiting on her man to save the day. She's protecting Metropolis because Superman's not there. She said as much at the beginning of the issue. Seems way more likely to me that she didn't give chase because she's made the decision to stay and protect the city from what's coming.

As for Diana not having to play into it. Its her title. Why wouldn't the writer have his star play directly into the themes of the particular issue? They may be in the middle of a crossover but this book is still called Superman/Wonder Woman.

[Blacksun]

But Brainiac even said that Wonder Woman was irrelevant and made Lois stop what she was doing and move on to another phase of the plan. So it wasn't Brainiac, the villain, who was bringing up boyfriends, it was the Lois he's confused and twisted. Furthermore, Diana didn't have to play into it. She didn't have to just stand there while Brainiac left because she was waiting for her man to prove him wrong about leaving her behind. Of all the things the psionic blast revealed, Brainiac chooses to lean more on the boyfriend emotional stuff than the stuff related to Diana's mother, for instance. So, maybe Soule could have made Brainiac the more cold and calculating villain he is, and have him get to Diana some other way or at least provide enough balance in the interaction so that other issues or means of attack were used.

that's the problems: Brainiac said WW was irrelevant, so it was all Lois being all crazy or whatever.
lois/brainiac wasn't exploring WW weakness at all, they were comparing boyfriends.
the emotional attack could have been much stronger. She lost a brother, her mother is a stone and her boyfriend away from her, made her stop chasing brainiac? I don't know what I have to say to this WW

[Sacred Knight]

Did you even read the issue? The death of Lennox and her mother's state were both referenced. Even Steve was referenced. Brainiac did attack her emotionally in those ways.

And again, there's no evidence anything Brainiac said is what made her not chase after her. The most logical conclusion is that she didn't give chase because she was committed to staying behind and protecting Metropolis, as its Superman's city and he's not there to do it. That's her whole stated reason for being there in the first place.

[misslane]

I didn't read it as Diana staying there waiting on her man to save the day. She's protecting Metropolis because Superman's not there. She said as much at the beginning of the issue. Seems way more likely to me that she didn't give chase because she's made the decision to stay and protect the city from what's coming.

Don't you think the best way for Wonder Woman to protect the city from what's coming would be to do her best to stop it? I'd at least think following Loisiac could help Wonder Woman get a better idea of what's she's dealing with. If she did follow Loisiac, for example, Diana would have been able to find the secondary staging location.

As for Diana not having to play into it. Its her title. Why wouldn't the writer have his star play directly into the themes of the particular issue? They may be in the middle of a crossover but this book is still called Superman/Wonder Woman.

What themes? Superman and Wonder Woman's relationship? Of course it plays into that part of the book, but it does so in a terribly clumsy and rather tacky way. A story doesn't have to be about a relationship at all times in order to serve the overall narrative of the relationship. Is it a worthy goal to serve a theme in such a way that characterizes Wonder Woman (and Loisiac) as reliant on their men to do the dirty work while the ladies clean up the mess?

The way Soule handled this confrontation was worse than even my most dire expectations. I expected so much more compassion from Diana. I expected her to do what Lois tried to do long ago when Brainiac possessed Corben during Morrison's opening arc: appeal to Lois as a human being. In the past, Lois pleaded with John to remember who he was and what he loved. Why not use Loisiac's tactic of using emotion to manipulate to get through to the woman trapped in the machine?

If Loisiac can show Diana her life and her emotions, then Diana can remind Lois of her friends, her passion for protecting humanity from corruption and injustice, her family, and her beloved boyfriend. I saw more judgment than sympathy from Wonder Woman. Yes, Loisiac was being awful, but she clearly was not herself. Wonder Woman's near laissez faire attitude regarding this entire Lois/Brainiac problem has been problematic from the beginning of this arc.

Wonder Woman has met Lois and her boyfriend. She met them both at the housewarming party. If Soule really, really needed to make every moment of Diana's time in this issue connected to the theme of relationships, then choose love and compassion over pettiness and jealousy. Have Diana appeal to Lois through her love for the man in her life -- the real love in her life -- not the reanimated corpse of John Corben. Let's see Lois try to break free even if it's for a second because she connects with the true feeling of love in her heart. Anything but this cheap, competitive nonsense.

[hellacre]

You noticed that too huh? I don't know why but that bit bothered me. First Superdoom says: "You left it all behind--friends, that stupid job, her". And I thought OK, he means Diana. But then, at the very end of the issue, Soule brings it out again with "save her". And her in this context can only mean Lois. So why did he bring up the interconnection? What's its purpose in the story?

I have no idea but to be honest Lobdell did make his Clark pine over Lois a tad while everywhere else he seemed to have moved on. We all know he tells Diana he loves her. Not at her bidding nor did she say it to force him to. His choice. So maybe it is a point to try to tie in there and in any case, Clark never thought of his job as stupid as the creature says. That's coming from Doomsday, a darker negative force trying to swamp Clark. So it's do we believe him or Clark? The Doomsday Superman that said the horrible things to Diana as well in the apartment do we believe Clark did not mean all he said or are those feelings things Superdoom simply taps into and exaggerates to undermine his victims. They were certainly harsh things said to Diana and yet it never shakes her faith in him. In fact not only Diana but Lana and Steel and Bruce all have faith in him. That is a common theme and it certainly does not undermine them as some are trying to say. The purpose of Doomsday is to kill Clark...do away with him and take over, but our hero should be able to overcome. I hope. I certainly hope in not some deus ex machina way with undoing time and everything that happened. That'd be pointless. So I am hoping in terms of Superman/Wonder Woman this event could bring them closer together and we get back on track with the Superman/Wonder Woman focus in this book.