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  1. #136

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    We need more War Machines, USAgents and Thunderstrikes than we ever need 3 Captain America's, 3 Spider-mans, 2 Thors, etc.
    A point that continuously gets lost in the shuffle. Bloating the main "brand names" is never a great idea. It's most assuredly a corporate idea concerned with short-term gains than long-term staying power. Most readers, I would guess, would prefer the introduction and/or evolution of characters like Bucky Barnes (into the Winter Soldier) or Beta Ray Bill being worthy to wield Mjolnir.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    I tend to rank this up with 'bad writing'. They did the same thing in the 90's... heck they did it in the 80's taking well loved characters and switching them out for new characters and ticking off the main audience. The difference is that these new characters either were already established and passing a mantle seemed natural and/or they grew from their and became their own characters. It wasn't a 'real' replacement.... and it didn't take as long to 'fix'. Eric Masterson had been around since 1988 before he became replacement Thor in 1991. By 1993 he was Thunderstrike. Also, his whole run was about finding the Real Thor because he's such a great hero and he never felt he measured up. Even when Thor was gone... he was still respected. Compare it to Jane Foster who had been around forever... but she was Thor in 2014 for over 5 years before becoming Valkrye... And Thor was 'unworthy'. For that matter, Thor STILL hasn't got control of his hammer today. Every story since 2014 was basically Thor sucks and everyone is better with his hammer than he is. That's not a 'woke' problem... that's just a bad writing problem. We need more War Machines, USAgents and Thunderstrikes than we ever need 3 Captain America's, 3 Spider-mans, 2 Thors, etc.
    I think the difference is that they created those older characters with the intention of spinning them off into their own titles, so they gave them their own codenames like Thunderstrike. Absolutely nobody benefits from two Hulks or Wolverines or Thors or Caps or Spider-Mans on a permanent basis. And yet they do this because "people would think our replacements are lesser if we didn't" so you have these awkward situations where the legacy heroes almost gleefully sanction the copying of their own names, and act pleased as a pig in slop about it. It's silly, there's no story drama, it's artificial and cringey. I love older characters who were kind of flip side versions of the heroes, like War Machine or Thunderstrike or even Ben Reilly. When Dan Slott creates a whole Spider "family" that are all variations on the same psidekick... what's the point? Nobody benefits and it's just pandering. Sam Wilson is fine as the Falcon, the reason why he doesn't work as Cap is that he's just the Falcon still with a red white and blue outfit. It's okay for a storyline maybe, but carrying forward, it just dilutes both of them and now you have two "Caps" running around. I don't even like the idea of a Red Hulk, you can't recreate the accident to have a duplicate Hulk creature!

    Maybe speculators bought 3-4 of a book, sure, but it does irk me how John Byrne used to blame all the ills in society on "speculators!" Stores bear most of the blame for this. But either way I think there's a ton more speculation now. Using a Covid check to buy something at triple FMV and over inflating the market is far worse to me, imo, than what happened in the 90s, since print was here to stay and digital wasn't even a thing. Then again, maybe without speculation there'd be no market whatsoever to even print actual comic books. I'm kind of over it personally.

  3. #138
    Mighty Member Baron of Faltine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil1 View Post
    I think the difference is that they created those older characters with the intention of spinning them off into their own titles, so they gave them their own codenames like Thunderstrike. Absolutely nobody benefits from two Hulks or Wolverines or Thors or Caps or Spider-Mans on a permanent basis. And yet they do this because "people would think our replacements are lesser if we didn't" so you have these awkward situations where the legacy heroes almost gleefully sanction the copying of their own names, and act pleased as a pig in slop about it. It's silly, there's no story drama, it's artificial and cringey. I love older characters who were kind of flip side versions of the heroes, like War Machine or Thunderstrike or even Ben Reilly. When Dan Slott creates a whole Spider "family" that are all variations on the same psidekick... what's the point? Nobody benefits and it's just pandering. Sam Wilson is fine as the Falcon, the reason why he doesn't work as Cap is that he's just the Falcon still with a red white and blue outfit. It's okay for a storyline maybe, but carrying forward, it just dilutes both of them and now you have two "Caps" running around. I don't even like the idea of a Red Hulk, you can't recreate the accident to have a duplicate Hulk creature!

    Maybe speculators bought 3-4 of a book, sure, but it does irk me how John Byrne used to blame all the ills in society on "speculators!" Stores bear most of the blame for this. But either way I think there's a ton more speculation now. Using a Covid check to buy something at triple FMV and over inflating the market is far worse to me, imo, than what happened in the 90s, since print was here to stay and digital wasn't even a thing. Then again, maybe without speculation there'd be no market whatsoever to even print actual comic books. I'm kind of over it personally.
    I am always ambivalent with the new-comers, because while I agree with what you said about diluted effect over time, I cannot help to feel soe love for these guy, I liked falconcap(but you are right in the end is still falcon. Proof that fakckn5can be damn cool if given a chance) i liked miles (but him keeping the spiderman title in his universe made more sense. I still do it understand why the ultimate universe had to be erased completely, sure the line was over but no need to burn it to the ground) I appreciated some stuff of Jane-thor...who would have eowkred better if they did not shat on main Thor 24/7. Sure he had starting self doubt but....the whole story work better rif Thor WILLINGLY gave the hammer to someone else, like when Cap deluded dropped the Cap mantle and gone first as Nomad( with hilarious cape) and then just The Captain( with cool black costume that was later adopted by USAgent(another replacement that transitioned in its own role). Would have worked better that way, story would not have ebeen changed and we could have focused on Jane exploits rather than wondering wher eis thor, why talk **** bout thor, when thor come back. ( I would not touch hulka family...since I had complicated feeling for red she Hulk and she Hulk...I like towering radioactive women...but is hate Rick Jones...not just for the Hulk mythos but in general...he is like the embodiment of ever bad friends you ever met in your life!)
    But nowadays things are less story driven, and more....gimmick driven. Is ot about message or what else. Is just a gimmick like the death death Superman, some thing to draw attention. Nothing more and is depressing seeing these characters who just cannot become their own, and as you said you diminish the original but trap the new character in forever shadow of the original
    <BTW Miles still work because he has some interesting new aspect compared to original spidey, power wise and character wise. Ben too work, as a more ruthless assholic Peter. But the others outside their universe got not enough space to work.>

  4. #139
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron of Faltine View Post
    I am always ambivalent with the new-comers, because while I agree with what you said about diluted effect over time, I cannot help to feel soe love for these guy, I liked falconcap(but you are right in the end is still falcon. Proof that fakckn5can be damn cool if given a chance) i liked miles (but him keeping the spiderman title in his universe made more sense. I still do it understand why the ultimate universe had to be erased completely, sure the line was over but no need to burn it to the ground) I appreciated some stuff of Jane-thor...who would have eowkred better if they did not shat on main Thor 24/7. Sure he had starting self doubt but....the whole story work better rif Thor WILLINGLY gave the hammer to someone else, like when Cap deluded dropped the Cap mantle and gone first as Nomad( with hilarious cape) and then just The Captain( with cool black costume that was later adopted by USAgent(another replacement that transitioned in its own role). Would have worked better that way, story would not have ebeen changed and we could have focused on Jane exploits rather than wondering wher eis thor, why talk **** bout thor, when thor come back. ( I would not touch hulka family...since I had complicated feeling for red she Hulk and she Hulk...I like towering radioactive women...but is hate Rick Jones...not just for the Hulk mythos but in general...he is like the embodiment of ever bad friends you ever met in your life!)
    But nowadays things are less story driven, and more....gimmick driven. Is ot about message or what else. Is just a gimmick like the death death Superman, some thing to draw attention. Nothing more and is depressing seeing these characters who just cannot become their own, and as you said you diminish the original but trap the new character in forever shadow of the original
    <BTW Miles still work because he has some interesting new aspect compared to original spidey, power wise and character wise. Ben too work, as a more ruthless assholic Peter. But the others outside their universe got not enough space to work.>
    Their is always a paradox with these kind of characters. It’s a lot harder for new characters with their own name and franchises to get over with the fans but when they do they tend to have a degree of staying power. It’s slightly easier for characters that share a name with an existing popular character to get over initially, but their always seems to be a ceiling to their popularity and a threat that the more popular original is going to come back. Sometimes I feel the initial hardship of getting a new concept over is worth it and the front loaded pop of using an already popular name is fool’s gold.

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil1 View Post
    I think the difference is that they created those older characters with the intention of spinning them off into their own titles, so they gave them their own codenames like Thunderstrike. Absolutely nobody benefits from two Hulks or Wolverines or Thors or Caps or Spider-Mans on a permanent basis. And yet they do this because "people would think our replacements are lesser if we didn't" so you have these awkward situations where the legacy heroes almost gleefully sanction the copying of their own names, and act pleased as a pig in slop about it. It's silly, there's no story drama, it's artificial and cringey. I love older characters who were kind of flip side versions of the heroes, like War Machine or Thunderstrike or even Ben Reilly. When Dan Slott creates a whole Spider "family" that are all variations on the same psidekick... what's the point? Nobody benefits and it's just pandering. Sam Wilson is fine as the Falcon, the reason why he doesn't work as Cap is that he's just the Falcon still with a red white and blue outfit. It's okay for a storyline maybe, but carrying forward, it just dilutes both of them and now you have two "Caps" running around. I don't even like the idea of a Red Hulk, you can't recreate the accident to have a duplicate Hulk creature!

    Maybe speculators bought 3-4 of a book, sure, but it does irk me how John Byrne used to blame all the ills in society on "speculators!" Stores bear most of the blame for this. But either way I think there's a ton more speculation now. Using a Covid check to buy something at triple FMV and over inflating the market is far worse to me, imo, than what happened in the 90s, since print was here to stay and digital wasn't even a thing. Then again, maybe without speculation there'd be no market whatsoever to even print actual comic books. I'm kind of over it personally.
    Careful there, buddy. I preached the exact same thing over in the thread for the new Cap books and absolutely got savaged.

    For me, Cap is made special because of who Steve is. Every other person to assume the title did things differently, but ultimately realised that Steve makes Captain America what it is. That's just my personal opinion.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil1 View Post
    I think the difference is that they created those older characters with the intention of spinning them off into their own titles, so they gave them their own codenames like Thunderstrike. Absolutely nobody benefits from two Hulks or Wolverines or Thors or Caps or Spider-Mans on a permanent basis. I love older characters who were kind of flip side versions of the heroes, like War Machine or Thunderstrike or even Ben Reilly. When Dan Slott creates a whole Spider "family" that are all variations on the same psidekick... what's the point? Nobody benefits and it's just pandering.
    Nobody threw FITS when that was done that lead to toxic behavior.

    Once upon a time you could give the Thunderstrike and War Machine books and NOBODY threw a fit. Now they do.

    And yet they do this because "people would think our replacements are lesser if we didn't" so you have these awkward situations where the legacy heroes almost gleefully sanction the copying of their own names, and act pleased as a pig in slop about it. It's silly, there's no story drama, it's artificial and cringey.
    No they do it because the fans tend to take offense if you try to build Sam as something as Steve's partner.

    Could you build up Sam as Falcon-YES.

    How much fighting toxic fandoms and stores do you want to get him to the point of where Luke Cage is? Because that is where the issue is at. Take Falcon to Image and give him a book-you won't hear a peep of complaints.

    Yet because of that Marvel banner-it's like blasphemy to build up established characters. SOMEONE is going to have an issue with it.

    Yet toss him in that CA suit-that dies down aside from Steve fans acting like it's a federal crime. Steve is still active with a book. How hard is it to ignore Sam's? Seriously.
    Miles and Peter seem to be doing fine.

    Maybe speculators bought 3-4 of a book, sure, but it does irk me how John Byrne used to blame all the ills in society on "speculators!" Stores bear most of the blame for this. But either way I think there's a ton more speculation now. Using a Covid check to buy something at triple FMV and over inflating the market is far worse to me, imo, than what happened in the 90s, since print was here to stay and digital wasn't even a thing. Then again, maybe without speculation there'd be no market whatsoever to even print actual comic books. I'm kind of over it personally
    You will always have a market to print comic books. What needs to change mainly for stores is over ordering books.
    You can't throw fits about 2-4 unsold Ms Marvel books while Batman and X-Men have larger piles. Because you HOPE you can jack up the price for whatever reason.
    Order enough to sell out.

  7. #142
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    Their is always a paradox with these kind of characters. It’s a lot harder for new characters with their own name and franchises to get over with the fans but when they do they tend to have a degree of staying power. It’s slightly easier for characters that share a name with an existing popular character to get over initially, but their always seems to be a ceiling to their popularity and a threat that the more popular original is going to come back. Sometimes I feel the initial hardship of getting a new concept over is worth it and the front loaded pop of using an already popular name is fool’s gold.
    This is really the crux of the whole situation. Nobody buys anything that's not a name brand. Like you can complain about preferring Sam with his name instead of another mantle toss but it doesn't really matter if you don't actually support him when he's by himself. There's a reason this keeps happening and it's because the fanbase of Marvel and DC don't care to buy anything else.
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  8. #143
    Mighty Member Baron of Faltine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9th. View Post
    This is really the crux of the whole situation. Nobody buys anything that's not a name brand. Like you can complain about preferring Sam with his name instead of another mantle toss but it doesn't really matter if you don't actually support him when he's by himself. There's a reason this keeps happening and it's because the fanbase of Marvel and DC don't care to buy anything else.
    You spoke a sad truth. ( by the way I think we should stop using the absolute" no one"and saying instead "not enough people" as it would clarify things better)
    No enough readers care about new characters, at least not in the time window that publishers are willing to grant. You need big success, big numbers. FAST!
    And this is not just an issue for western comics, Manfa has developed this issue with an "axe crisis" of sort with new series being offed and cancelled suddenly. One moment you are starting the hero tournament arc, and the next issue, BAMMM, all the plotlines get resolved simultaneously in 3 episodes wrapping things up in eerie fast way!
    In western comics they just....stop....ending with a Wimper....and the character will be lucky if they remember him/her for their cyclical "genocidal" period where they just do a channel of secondary characters for no real reason and for no good memorable story either.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9th. View Post
    This is really the crux of the whole situation. Nobody buys anything that's not a name brand. Like you can complain about preferring Sam with his name instead of another mantle toss but it doesn't really matter if you don't actually support him when he's by himself. There's a reason this keeps happening and it's because the fanbase of Marvel and DC don't care to buy anything else.
    I think there's kind of an unspoken elephant in the room that I'll just go ahead and say, that leads to the divide and disagreement- I simply don't think that Sam or Cho Hulk or Ther even need their own books. Some get them for perhaps the wrong reasons. I think only the legacy characters need their own titles, and I don't think we need a dozen Spider-Man or Batman books at that either. If people want to buy them, great, but Marvel has been artificially pushing them to make it a thing just to be "progressive," and it's really reductive thinking to me done for no good reason.

  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil1 View Post
    I think the difference is that they created those older characters with the intention of spinning them off into their own titles, so they gave them their own codenames like Thunderstrike. Absolutely nobody benefits from two Hulks or Wolverines or Thors or Caps or Spider-Mans on a permanent basis. And yet they do this because "people would think our replacements are lesser if we didn't" so you have these awkward situations where the legacy heroes almost gleefully sanction the copying of their own names, and act pleased as a pig in slop about it. It's silly, there's no story drama, it's artificial and cringey. I love older characters who were kind of flip side versions of the heroes, like War Machine or Thunderstrike or even Ben Reilly. When Dan Slott creates a whole Spider "family" that are all variations on the same psidekick... what's the point? Nobody benefits and it's just pandering. Sam Wilson is fine as the Falcon, the reason why he doesn't work as Cap is that he's just the Falcon still with a red white and blue outfit. It's okay for a storyline maybe, but carrying forward, it just dilutes both of them and now you have two "Caps" running around. I don't even like the idea of a Red Hulk, you can't recreate the accident to have a duplicate Hulk creature!
    I would question that... I don't have any evidene of course, and don't know how far out they planned. However it really felt more like making a temporary switch to stir things up... and when the character caught on, THEN they got their own identity. Masterson didn't start as Thunderstrike. He was 'Thor' (and nobody cared that he used the word Thor as a Codename). It wasn't until they ended that storyline and Eric was pretty popular that he THEN got his own mallet and codename and book. If he had bombed as a character they wouldn't have bothered spinning him off in his own book.


    One of the major issues I see with comics now, is the whole 'decompressed Storytelling'. I've been rereading my old Darkhawks. He gained his powers in #1 along with intro to supporting cast and motivation. 2-3 he fought Hobgoblin, 4 was Savage Steel 5 introduced Portal. 6 fought the U-foes. Then Lodestone, Punisher, Tombstone...

    The first 10 issues were fast paced, kept a solid ongoing story and were exciting. Now? You can go 10 issues with barely anything happening. Bendis was the worst for that. New Avengers and Daredevil were so drawn out that a whole issue could cover one conversation and nothing really mattered. It causes people to 'trade wait'. Why bother buying every issue when the story needs to be read 6-12 issues at a time. Downside, if nobody is buying those issues they cancel the book to quickly. The new Darkhawk was 5 issues long, and only had one story arc. By this time the old Darkhawk had three major fights and introduced 2 new super villans. If you're going to push a new character.. you need to hook people FAST. You don't have the luxury of asking people to try out the first arc or two when it's $5 a book and 6 issues an arc.

    You can either have long drawn out character driven literature... or fast paced action that people can't wait to get the next issue of. If marvel is going to push the 'long game' like they have been, then they need to have patience with books.

  11. #146
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil1 View Post
    I think there's kind of an unspoken elephant in the room that I'll just go ahead and say, that leads to the divide and disagreement- I simply don't think that Sam or Cho Hulk or Ther even need their own books. Some get them for perhaps the wrong reasons. I think only the legacy characters need their own titles, and I don't think we need a dozen Spider-Man or Batman books at that either. If people want to buy them, great, but Marvel has been artificially pushing them to make it a thing just to be "progressive," and it's really reductive thinking to me done for no good reason.
    Yeah, I'd agree with that. Their Market Research has really sucked the last decade or two. Someone somewhere said "Hey, This small of group of XXXXXX don't buy comic books, so we should push all our efforts to getting them to read new characters just like XXXXXXX!" and at the end of the day.... XXXXXX still don't buy comic books. They're putting all their efforts to claim a market that really doesn't seem to care about them.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil1 View Post
    I think there's kind of an unspoken elephant in the room that I'll just go ahead and say, that leads to the divide and disagreement- I simply don't think that Sam or Cho Hulk or Ther even need their own books. Some get them for perhaps the wrong reasons. I think only the legacy characters need their own titles, and I don't think we need a dozen Spider-Man or Batman books at that either. If people want to buy them, great, but Marvel has been artificially pushing them to make it a thing just to be "progressive," and it's really reductive thinking to me done for no good reason.
    Yet they DO......

    Because once we get past the toxic comic book store-a lot of these guys like everyone else from Archie to Valiant to IDW can find an audience.

    Marvel is not pushing anything to be progressive. They are looking beyond a set of fans who will forever scream what they don't like doesn't deserve to be made.


    I have been of the stance since Dudebros want to be toxic and gatekeeping-BYPASS them.

    I don't need a 36 issue run of Cho Hulk that some deem so offensive they stayed out of comic book stores over him.

    I rather have 5 graphic novels.

    Or what Marvel is doing with Shuri- a book line that is doing rather well.

    Along with what they have been doing-kid books and novels with LOL Sam Wilson as himself and CA.

    Because when you look beyond that comic book store it says a different message.

    Who know Raven, Beast Boy, Doom Patrol and others could find audiences outside of comic book store.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron of Faltine View Post
    Manfa has developed this issue with an "axe crisis" of sort with new series being offed and cancelled suddenly. One moment you are starting the hero tournament arc, and the next issue, BAMMM, all the plotlines get resolved simultaneously in 3 episodes wrapping things up in eerie fast way!
    That's mostly Shonen Jump other manga magazines are nowhere near as cutthroat on "do good rankings out of the gate, NOW." And even they will be a tad more lenient if there's a clear gap their magazine is missing they need to fill, like if their current rom-com is ending and they need a new one. And Shonen Jump has been this harsh for... awhile, at least the 90's I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Yet they DO......

    Because once we get past the toxic comic book store-a lot of these guys like everyone else from Archie to Valiant to IDW can find an audience.

    Marvel is not pushing anything to be progressive. They are looking beyond a set of fans who will forever scream what they don't like doesn't deserve to be made.


    I have been of the stance since Dudebros want to be toxic and gatekeeping-BYPASS them.

    I don't need a 36 issue run of Cho Hulk that some deem so offensive they stayed out of comic book stores over him.

    I rather have 5 graphic novels.

    Or what Marvel is doing with Shuri- a book line that is doing rather well.

    Along with what they have been doing-kid books and novels with LOL Sam Wilson as himself and CA.

    Because when you look beyond that comic book store it says a different message.

    Who know Raven, Beast Boy, Doom Patrol and others could find audiences outside of comic book store.
    To YOU the problem is "toxic" dudebros who won't get with the program. To me Marvel is pushing these things for no good reason other than they think they're being virtuous. Much like movie studios, no one can ever give a good reason for why/what is the point. It sure isn't to bring in the mythical new reader; plenty of young people read comics, and they all mostly pirate them. The people buying monthly comics are the same 40-50 year old men who were buying them in the 2000s and speculators. I'm not sure why you feel the need to keep replying to me to tell me about toxicity, I left you be last time and yet you seem intent to reply to my every post.

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    I would question that... I don't have any evidene of course, and don't know how far out they planned. However it really felt more like making a temporary switch to stir things up... and when the character caught on, THEN they got their own identity. Masterson didn't start as Thunderstrike. He was 'Thor' (and nobody cared that he used the word Thor as a Codename). It wasn't until they ended that storyline and Eric was pretty popular that he THEN got his own mallet and codename and book. If he had bombed as a character they wouldn't have bothered spinning him off in his own book.


    One of the major issues I see with comics now, is the whole 'decompressed Storytelling'. I've been rereading my old Darkhawks. He gained his powers in #1 along with intro to supporting cast and motivation. 2-3 he fought Hobgoblin, 4 was Savage Steel 5 introduced Portal. 6 fought the U-foes. Then Lodestone, Punisher, Tombstone...

    The first 10 issues were fast paced, kept a solid ongoing story and were exciting. Now? You can go 10 issues with barely anything happening. Bendis was the worst for that. New Avengers and Daredevil were so drawn out that a whole issue could cover one conversation and nothing really mattered. It causes people to 'trade wait'. Why bother buying every issue when the story needs to be read 6-12 issues at a time. Downside, if nobody is buying those issues they cancel the book to quickly. The new Darkhawk was 5 issues long, and only had one story arc. By this time the old Darkhawk had three major fights and introduced 2 new super villans. If you're going to push a new character.. you need to hook people FAST. You don't have the luxury of asking people to try out the first arc or two when it's $5 a book and 6 issues an arc.

    You can either have long drawn out character driven literature... or fast paced action that people can't wait to get the next issue of. If marvel is going to push the 'long game' like they have been, then they need to have patience with books.
    You know this reminds me an almost identical discussion I witnessed on manga boards on how many of the "axed" new mangas wasted way too much time to get to the point (we are still in the fucking village? But this point in OP we were recruiting Sanji!) . Eh kinda funny how East
    and West are similar at times.

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