Was the late 90s/early 2000s the last 'normal' period for Marvel?

[jackolover]

Thank you as well, jackolover, and alas, once you do inject real-world consequences and implications into a superhero fantasy universe like Marvel, you do irrevocably change things, even if you try to act like nothing's changed later. The memory is still there of how these characters were torn apart and turned against each other and forced into terrible circumstances at the hands of characters they knew and trusted and perhaps even loved, and most of all, the fans and readers remember, too, which casts a pall over everything that happens from that point onward. Then again, Marvel did use to market itself as "the world outside your window," but with superheroes, super-villains, and super-tech, so if "the world outside our window" has become darker, bleaker, and more cynical, then it would be remiss on Marvel's part not to address those issues, but preferably in a way that allows for heroes to still be heroes and remain icons of hope and symbols of good.

Well said again Huntsman Spider. I try not to delve to deeply into the harshness of the terrible circumstances and the distrust in characters anymore, so I know where you are coming from.

[Xalfrea]

I'd agree, but with the caveat that "normal" depends on what era you were growing up reading and collecting comics in. I grew up in the 1990s, though most of my exposure to comics then was through the contemporary animated series and a bunch of comics from the 1980s, so my "normal" is pretty nebulous. Perhaps that's what it is --- a generation gap between the older fans who are used to things being a certain way, and the younger fans who either never experienced the "old" Marvel or were more adaptable to the "new" Marvel established in the 2000s and onward.

In truth, there's no shame in yearning for the "old" Marvel, in the sense that even if it wasn't perfect or up to certain standards, it was at least "ours," for lack of a better word. The "new" Marvel may not feel like it's "ours," and maybe that's because it's geared toward a new generation of fans and readers that has different tastes, different experiences, and thus different expectations. As painful as it can be to look at today's comics and feel lost in the unfamiliar, the reality is that comics, like all other media, evolve to reflect the times they're created in, and as such, a comic made in the 2000s or 2010s is going to be significantly different from a comic made in the 1970s or 1980s. It has to be, because sensibilities have changed, or even evolved, between the 1970s/80s and 2000s/10s and so comics, like any other medium, have to adapt with those evolutions. Everything changes, and nothing gets to remain the same; in fact, it shouldn't, or else it will stagnate, but those changes don't have to be treated as negatives or losses, they can be chances to expand our understanding of the world and the people around us. In that sense, we can all gain even more than we would expect, if we are willing to go in with open minds and open hearts.

P.S. Do some or a lot of today's comics suck, or at least, are they not as good as they could or should be? Yes, they do, and they are. But so did and were lot of comics we had growing up, too, even before the 1990s, so perhaps we shouldn't throw stones from a glass house, even if that glass is fortified by our nostalgia.

Right on the ball, and pretty much how I feel. I like both equally and understand that not all eras are prefect, but at the moment I'm happy with the current state of affairs.

I admit it partly might be my own thing. I'm personally not quite as yearning for the nostalgia of yesteryear, the good ol' days, back in my day, EVERYTHING WAS BETTER ON MY EARTH, etc. This also applies to other forms of media beyond comics. The stuff of old is good too, but the stuff of new just as much validation. And I'm personally sick of this mentality of discounting the new stuff because of some sweet sugar-coated memories of childhood.

But as for the medium at hand, my relatively neutral attitude is also because I really do not spend much to buy comics. As mentioned probably dozens upon dozens of times and in my sig, I really only buy ONE comic: Ms. Marvel (And the team books she is on, which still just makes a total of three). As such I can't really sympathize, relate, or take any side in any various comments, observations, rantings from people who read current Marvel and bemoan how the stories of today aren't like the stories of then, or people who don't read current Marvel and lament how their stories are somehow "superior", or people who play doomsayer at how Marvel and the comics industry is dying, how Disney is ruining everything, how DC Rebirth is doing better and ignoring its own problems, how the movies are ruining the comics, how Marvel VS Capcom Infinite sucks because there are no X-Men, and the immeasurable amount of topics that pertain to comics, current issues, and lord knows what else.

Sorry for my rant, but that's just how I feel. I honestly at times feel like an anomaly and alone when it comes to being a comic book fan, and had to vent it out.

[Cykewasright]

Yes it was the last normal period for Marvel.

[KingsLeadHat]

And why did Quesada cut down on captions and thought balloons and ban footnotes?

From what I've gathered over the years, Quesada read comics as a kid but gave up on them in his early to mid teens (?) and only returned to the fold with DKR's and Watchmen in 1986. He's stated that that was what he wanted Marvel to be like, more or less. I think that's pretty clear, particularly in the early days of his tenure as EIC. Miller was probably the biggest influence, since he started to experiment way back in his DD run without thought balloons.

Some creators seem to have an obsession with making comics more "cinematic" which has always puzzled me since I already felt the best 80's work of, say, Walt Simonson on Thor and John Byrne on FF was ALREADY very cinematic in many ways, yet you still got plenty of thought balloons and captions. I think it's a big mistake and it robs comics of one of it's most unique tools in terms of getting inside a characters head. It can be overdone, sure, but if done well it only enhances characterization.

[WebLurker]

Some creators seem to have an obsession with making comics more "cinematic" which has always puzzled me since I already felt the best 80's work of, say, Walt Simonson on Thor and John Byrne on FF was ALREADY very cinematic in many ways, yet you still got plenty of thought balloons and captions. I think it's a big mistake and it robs comics of one of it's most unique tools in terms of getting inside a characters head. It can be overdone, sure, but if done well it only enhances characterization.

I find that I like the caption boxes with the character's thoughts in them, the though balloons not so much. Also, I find the cinematic comics generally more enjoyable; it seems to suit better pacing and more in-depth stories, which, when handled correctly, make for more enjoyable material.

[KingsLeadHat]

I find that I like the caption boxes with the character's thoughts in them, the though balloons not so much. Also, I find the cinematic comics generally more enjoyable; it seems to suit better pacing and more in-depth stories, which, when handled correctly, make for more enjoyable material.

I find that cinematic stories often lack good sequential storytelling and devolve into splash-page-fests. If they can avoid this, I'm fine with it. Though this is also a product of decompression. Less happens per issue given the stretched out pacing.

[Matternativ]

Sorry for my rant, but that's just how I feel. I honestly at times feel like an anomaly and alone when it comes to being a comic book fan, and had to vent it out.

You are not. Though people with that kind of mindset are probably in the minority.
I happen to agree with you.
All the nostalgia **** everywhere at any time annoys me to no end.
I mean, don't get me wrong: Nostalgia can be awesome but it should not ever cloud your judgement.
Be it in music, comics, movies or the state of the world in which case overly nostalgic thinking evolves from annoying to dangerous but let's stick to comics.

While I'd would be hard to argue for me that I liked ANAD Marvel better than post Civil War/Dark Reign Marvel I can differentiate between my preferences and actual differences in overall quality.

[Huntsman Spider]

Well said again Huntsman Spider. I try not to delve to deeply into the harshness of the terrible circumstances and the distrust in characters anymore, so I know where you are coming from.

Thanks again, and I understand where you're coming from, too.

Right on the ball, and pretty much how I feel. I like both equally and understand that not all eras are prefect, but at the moment I'm happy with the current state of affairs.

I admit it partly might be my own thing. I'm personally not quite as yearning for the nostalgia of yesteryear, the good ol' days, back in my day, EVERYTHING WAS BETTER ON MY EARTH, etc. This also applies to other forms of media beyond comics. The stuff of old is good too, but the stuff of new just as much validation. And I'm personally sick of this mentality of discounting the new stuff because of some sweet sugar-coated memories of childhood.

But as for the medium at hand, my relatively neutral attitude is also because I really do not spend much to buy comics. As mentioned probably dozens upon dozens of times and in my sig, I really only buy ONE comic: Ms. Marvel (And the team books she is on, which still just makes a total of three). As such I can't really sympathize, relate, or take any side in any various comments, observations, rantings from people who read current Marvel and bemoan how the stories of today aren't like the stories of then, or people who don't read current Marvel and lament how their stories are somehow "superior", or people who play doomsayer at how Marvel and the comics industry is dying, how Disney is ruining everything, how DC Rebirth is doing better and ignoring its own problems, how the movies are ruining the comics, how Marvel VS Capcom Infinite sucks because there are no X-Men, and the immeasurable amount of topics that pertain to comics, current issues, and lord knows what else.

Sorry for my rant, but that's just how I feel. I honestly at times feel like an anomaly and alone when it comes to being a comic book fan, and had to vent it out.

It's cool. We all gotta vent sometimes, and to be honest, you're not alone in feeling the way you do. I think it's just because the people who actively dislike the current iteration of Marvel Comics are a lot more vocal in that dislike than the people who do like it or are at least willing to give it a chance. They're just reading and whether they enjoy it or not, they're not in the forums and comments sections making their voices heard as loudly as others are.

You are not. Though people with that kind of mindset are probably in the minority.
I happen to agree with you.
All the nostalgia **** everywhere at any time annoys me to no end.
I mean, don't get me wrong: Nostalgia can be awesome but it should not ever cloud your judgement.
Be it in music, comics, movies or the state of the world in which case overly nostalgic thinking evolves from annoying to dangerous but let's stick to comics.

While I'd would be hard to argue for me that I liked ANAD Marvel better than post Civil War/Dark Reign Marvel I can differentiate between my preferences and actual differences in overall quality.

And let's not forget, it was in the "good old days" of Marvel Comics that we had Sam Wilson as a pimp cosmically reconditioned to believe he was an affable social worker to get on Steve Rogers's good side before shanking him in the back for Red Skull, or Avengers #200 with Ms. Marvel/Carol Danvers and her mind-controlling rapist that everyone was somehow ok with her going off with to live "happily ever after." The good thing about today's comics, such as they are, is that for all the missteps they have made, it's a lot less likely that stuff like "Sam Wilson's true origin" or Avengers #200 would be approved for publishing, given how many people would have rightfully recoiled and buried Marvel (online, at least) in condemnation and criticism.

[Frontier]

Don't forget the Heroic Age after Siege.
That was the last "normal" period and it looks like we are approaching another after Secret Empire.

Although that Heroic Age felt like a quick blip before we got back to business as usual, more or less.

Though it's also probably pretty comparable to what we're getting in Legacy since most of the major writers pre-SE are sticking around on their books for the new "back-to-basics" status quo.

[JKtheMac]

Although that Heroic Age felt like a quick blip before we got back to business as usual, more or less.

Though it's also probably pretty comparable to what we're getting in Legacy since most of the major writers pre-SE are sticking around on their books for the new "back-to-basics" status quo.

I am pretty sure there is no back-to-basics status quo on the horizon. That certainly isn't how Legacy is being marketed.

[Frontier]

I am pretty sure there is no back-to-basics status quo on the horizon. That certainly isn't how Legacy is being marketed.

That sounds about right.

Marvel's idea of "back-to-basics" for Spider-Man seems to be more team-ups after all, so maybe there's a silver lining in that .

Although what Legacy is right now is vague enough that I don't think we can know one way or the other what we're getting until Marvel starts confirming books and premises.

[JKtheMac]

That sounds about right.

Marvel's idea of "back-to-basics" for Spider-Man seems to be more team-ups after all, so maybe there's a silver lining in that .

Although what Legacy is right now is vague enough that I don't think we can know one way or the other what we're getting until Marvel starts confirming books and premises.

Clearly ASM is soon going to drift back towards a more down on his luck Peter, but that was pretty obviously always the plan, from the very first page of this volume. That shift is well under way even now.

[JKtheMac]

As to the premise of this thread. As far as I am concerned we are in normal now and have been since about 2013 and the previous normal was early 80s.

[Venomous Mask]

Right on the ball, and pretty much how I feel. I like both equally and understand that not all eras are prefect, but at the moment I'm happy with the current state of affairs.

I admit it partly might be my own thing. I'm personally not quite as yearning for the nostalgia of yesteryear, the good ol' days, back in my day, EVERYTHING WAS BETTER ON MY EARTH, etc. This also applies to other forms of media beyond comics. The stuff of old is good too, but the stuff of new just as much validation. And I'm personally sick of this mentality of discounting the new stuff because of some sweet sugar-coated memories of childhood.

But as for the medium at hand, my relatively neutral attitude is also because I really do not spend much to buy comics. As mentioned probably dozens upon dozens of times and in my sig, I really only buy ONE comic: Ms. Marvel (And the team books she is on, which still just makes a total of three). As such I can't really sympathize, relate, or take any side in any various comments, observations, rantings from people who read current Marvel and bemoan how the stories of today aren't like the stories of then, or people who don't read current Marvel and lament how their stories are somehow "superior", or people who play doomsayer at how Marvel and the comics industry is dying, how Disney is ruining everything, how DC Rebirth is doing better and ignoring its own problems, how the movies are ruining the comics, how Marvel VS Capcom Infinite sucks because there are no X-Men, and the immeasurable amount of topics that pertain to comics, current issues, and lord knows what else.

Sorry for my rant, but that's just how I feel. I honestly at times feel like an anomaly and alone when it comes to being a comic book fan, and had to vent it out.

I will say, as someone who's been reading Marvel Comics for over twenty years now and has built up a fair bit of nostalgia, I will take the current period over 2001 to about 2011 any day of the week.

[Frontier]

Clearly ASM is soon going to drift back towards a more down on his luck Peter, but that was pretty obviously always the plan, from the very first page of this volume. That shift is well under way even now.

I know, but still, Marvel has a funny way of advertising "back-to-basics" for both their comics and cartoons .

I will say, as someone who's been reading Marvel Comics for over twenty years now and has built up a fair bit of nostalgia, I will take the current period over 2001 to about 2011 any day of the week.

There are certainly new books and characters that I enjoy in the current era, although I personally still prefer older Marvel eras. But that's just me...