Was the late 90s/early 2000s the last 'normal' period for Marvel?

[gurkle]

At least Marvel, unlike DC, includes recap pages, which can be clunky but which I often find very helpful. One of my first encounters with Marvel was the 1998 Avengers run, and this was a period when Marvel first started doing recap pages, complete with panels from earlier stories. I found that a good way to figure out what was going on and what details were important. They dropped the recap pages in 1999 due to the cost, but brought them back permanently in 2001.

If anything, though, I think today's comics try too hard to reach the new and casual reader. They're obsessed with "jumping-on points," which is part of the reason (though only part) for all the new #1s and relaunches. But I don't think there's a lot of evidence that readers can't jump in in the middle of a long ongoing story and enjoy themselves.

No comic book will probably ever be as popular again as X-Men in the early-to-mid '90s, and it was almost incomprehensible to the new reader (and if anything, all the exposition just made it harder to understand, not easier). But the issues would have something to hook a new reader - a fight, a kiss, a secret revealed - and as they got hooked and read more issues, they'd pick up what was going on. That's how soap operas work.

[JKtheMac]

If I'm a new reader, I don't want to have to work at something that should be fun.

At least 80% of Marvel is made with that exact concern in mind. So don't worry.

[JKtheMac]

Modern superhero comics do throw up all sorts of hurdles to the new and casual reader. I find the arguments to the contrary extremely unconvincing. It's probably more challenging with the team books than with the solo books, of course. A shared superhero universe which has been around for more than 50 years is going to be imposing enough for those who are not familiar with the ins and outs of every franchise. Making it more difficult than it needs to be is hardly helpful, which I suppose is one reason why Marvel feels the need to provide things like the free All-New All Different Reading Chronology.

As to comics attracting details-oriented people, perhaps. But complexity of subject matter in, say, The Black Monday Murders, is one thing. Complexity imposed by Marvel's commercial strategies is quite another.

As I have pointed out before, I am a relative newcomer to Marvel. I read a few reviews, did a bit of wikipedia reading, read a few runs, committed to Marvel Unlimited and I was away. It really wasn't difficult. I have now read literally thousands of Marvel comics from across many decades and have a very good grasp of how the eras fit into the larger picture. There is no barrier to entry to the curious.

[stain]

As I have pointed out before, I am a relative newcomer to Marvel. I read a few reviews, did a bit of wikipedia reading, read a few runs, committed to Marvel Unlimited and I was away. It really wasn't difficult. I have now read literally thousands of Marvel comics from across many decades and have a very good grasp of how the eras fit into the larger picture. There is no barrier to entry to the curious.

I don't understand the argument either.

Hate to say it, but in my day you didn't have nearly the amount of options to learn about the various details of the comic book universes. Today a kid can watch a few YouTube videos and know as much as I do, without having to read one single comic book. A lot of us had to read through back issues, wizard recaps, and discuss the comics at the LCS. I can't imagine having the MU at my fingertips when I was 15, pretty much any Marvel comic of note in the past 80 years all on an iPad. No searching through long boxes. Comixology back then would have seemed like a futuristic fantasy.

If anything it's too easy today, it takes pretty much zero effort to "jump in" compared to any time in the history of comics.

[Goggindowner]

If I'm a new reader, I don't want to have to work at something that should be fun.

Exactly. I am always shocked at how foreign this concept seems to people.

And to tell the truth, it isn't the confusion, it's the exasperation that gets me. I might not be a regular reader but I try and keep up with the major plot threads. I have a general idea of what is going on most of the time. But they make the bar for entry just high enough that it doesn't feel worth it. I end up languishing over which version of Spiderman I want to try picking up. Or which X-Men team has the cast and concept that most appeals to what I want out of those characters. I don't have an unlimited budget, I can only try so many things at once and regularly purchase even fewer. So I usually end up back in the indies or reading limited series that aren't in continuity.

[Prof. Warren]

Exactly. I am always shocked at how foreign this concept seems to people.

And to tell the truth, it isn't the confusion, it's the exasperation that gets me. I might not be a regular reader but I try and keep up with the major plot threads. I have a general idea of what is going on most of the time. But they make the bar for entry just high enough that it doesn't feel worth it. I end up languishing over which version of Spiderman I want to try picking up. Or which X-Men team has the cast and concept that most appeals to what I want out of those characters. I don't have an unlimited budget, I can only try so many things at once and regularly purchase even fewer. So I usually end up back in the indies or reading limited series that aren't in continuity.

Are you kidding? "Languishing over which version of Spider-Man" you want to read?

It's not Marvel's fault if this is actually a difficult thing for you or for anyone, for that matter.

If you want to read Peter Parker, read Peter Parker. He's in Amazing Spider-Man, just like always.

If you want to read Miles Morales, pick up Spider-Man. It's pretty easy to tell these books apart.

Did people complain in the '80s that they had no idea how to jump onto Spider-Man because there was Amazing, Spectacular, Web, and Marvel Tales? I mean, really - how are people supposed to know where to start with one character featured in four books? Which one is the most important? Can I buy just one book or do I have to buy all of 'em? It's impossible to know what to do!

And deciding which X-Men team has the cast and concept that most appeals to you is a problem? Boy, how did fans ever manage to figure this out back in the '80s and '90s?

As been's said, any comic shop will have staff members who can easily answer simple questions like "Hey, where do I start with Spider-Man?"

Failing that, a quick internet search would provide the same info in minutes.

Some fans want to act as though there's some insurmountable challenge in jumping into comics when it's actually easier than ever.

[WebLurker]

Are you kidding? "Languishing over which version of Spider-Man" you want to read?

It's not Marvel's fault if this is actually a difficult thing for you or for anyone, for that matter.

If you want to read Peter Parker, read Peter Parker. He's in Amazing Spider-Man, just like always.

If you want to read Miles Morales, pick up Spider-Man. It's pretty easy to tell these books apart.

Did people complain in the '80s that they had no idea how to jump onto Spider-Man because there was Amazing, Spectacular, Web, and Marvel Tales? I mean, really - how are people supposed to know where to start with one character featured in four books? Which one is the most important? Can I buy just one book or do I have to buy all of 'em? It's impossible to know what to do!

And deciding which X-Men team has the cast and concept that most appeals to you is a problem? Boy, how did fans ever manage to figure this out back in the '80s and '90s?

As been's said, any comic shop will have staff members who can easily answer simple questions like "Hey, where do I start with Spider-Man?"

Failing that, a quick internet search would provide the same info in minutes.

Some fans want to act as though there's some insurmountable challenge in jumping into comics when it's actually easier than ever.

I don't know. The more I have to work for my entertainment, the less motivation I have to try it. Once I'm hooked on something, sure, I'll research it. Heck, I'll do it for the fun of it. I'm kinda new to comics. I like trivia enough that I might be able to fudge through stuff if I needed to, but the complexity of modern comics and the inane numbering systems and lack of official help for getting started are huge turnoffs, at least for this guy.

[Goggindowner]

Are you kidding? "Languishing over which version of Spider-Man" you want to read?

It's not Marvel's fault if this is actually a difficult thing for you or for anyone, for that matter.

If you want to read Peter Parker, read Peter Parker. He's in Amazing Spider-Man, just like always.

If you want to read Miles Morales, pick up Spider-Man. It's pretty easy to tell these books apart.

Did people complain in the '80s that they had no idea how to jump onto Spider-Man because there was Amazing, Spectacular, Web, and Marvel Tales? I mean, really - how are people supposed to know where to start with one character featured in four books? Which one is the most important? Can I buy just one book or do I have to buy all of 'em? It's impossible to know what to do!

And deciding which X-Men team has the cast and concept that most appeals to you is a problem? Boy, how did fans ever manage to figure this out back in the '80s and '90s?

As been's said, any comic shop will have staff members who can easily answer simple questions like "Hey, where do I start with Spider-Man?"

Failing that, a quick internet search would provide the same info in minutes.

Some fans want to act as though there's some insurmountable challenge in jumping into comics when it's actually easier than ever.

I said multiple times and very early on that I see this as being my problem. I don't care enough about this company anymore to put in the work to understand what is going on on a monthly basis. I thought in the last few months I was ready to give it a try, but even then I ended up being drawn more towards the indie stuff.

To be honest, I do feel like there is way too much similar stuff. Too many variations of the same concept. I don't have the time in my life nor the money in my wallet to wade through all of it to figure out what's good and what's not.

Again, that's my problem and no one else's. It is amazing to me how defensive some people get about this. I don't see this the same way you do, that's not a personal assault on your sensibilities. There is truth in both of our sides of this argument. Comics are easier to get into now from the perspective of available information. But when things happen so quickly, books are relaunched and rebooted so frequently, and so many characters have been swapped or duplicated, you have to have enough incentive to want to take that extra effort to dive in. It's not worth it to me, and I am not the only person who feels that way no matter how much you rail against the notion.

[JKtheMac]

I said multiple times and very early on that I see this as being my problem. I don't care enough about this company anymore to put in the work to understand what is going on on a monthly basis. I thought in the last few months I was ready to give it a try, but even then I ended up being drawn more towards the indie stuff.

To be honest, I do feel like there is way too much similar stuff. Too many variations of the same concept. I don't have the time in my life nor the money in my wallet to wade through all of it to figure out what's good and what's not.

Again, that's my problem and no one else's. It is amazing to me how defensive some people get about this. I don't see this the same way you do, that's not a personal assault on your sensibilities. There is truth in both of our sides of this argument. Comics are easier to get into now from the perspective of available information. But when things happen so quickly, books are relaunched and rebooted so frequently, and so many characters have been swapped or duplicated, you have to have enough incentive to want to take that extra effort to dive in. It's not worth it to me, and I am not the only person who feels that way no matter how much you rail against the notion.

I don't think that is even a problem. Big two comics take a lot of investment in either time, money or subscription, nobody is arguing against that. We all gravitate to what we find most enjoyable. Personally I get a different kind of enjoyment from reading an Image book to reading Marvel, but I enjoy both. For me it is worth the effort to dig in to the Marvel Universe, but then I am enjoying a lot of what I am reading from Marvel right now. If you are not then clearly 'don't do that.' What we are objecting to is the logic of that investment being a barrier to entry. That works fine as a justification for your actions, but I don't think you can generalise. The market generally follows demand. We get the Marvel people are prepared to pay for.

[Prof. Warren]

I don't know. The more I have to work for my entertainment, the less motivation I have to try it. Once I'm hooked on something, sure, I'll research it. Heck, I'll do it for the fun of it. I'm kinda new to comics. I like trivia enough that I might be able to fudge through stuff if I needed to, but the complexity of modern comics and the inane numbering systems and lack of official help for getting started are huge turnoffs, at least for this guy.

For a lot of people, they find it too daunting to jump into modern comics - the fact that they can't easily come in "on the ground floor" as it were presents a mental obstacle to them when it comes to the Big Two. I get that new readers find it easier to go with Image or other self-contained books rather than dive into a massive shared universe that has been in existence for decades.

But I don't think that it's any more difficult now to jump on than it was, say, thirty years ago. If anything, the internet has only made it easier for novice and lapsed readers to get up to speed. If someone sees the complexity of Marvel or DC as a barrier, that's their choice but I don't think there's much to do about that. Fans want that complexity and that deep, interconnected mythology. Marvel might start another version of the Ultimate universe at some point to be that easy-to-grasp entry point again for newcomers (in fact, I'd be very surprised if a new UU wasn't already in the works) but the fact is, any comic is a suitable jumping on point.

[HaveAtThee]

Jumping on points are way overplayed. If you're an imaginative child and a comic book catches your eye, you'll thumb through and read it and if it entices you you'll get the next issue. If they reference something in the past you're going to start begging your parents for some cash to get you back issues and go from there. Curiosity and willingness to continue overpowers any type of obstacles.

An experienced, longtime reader will find the incessant need for jumping on points to be tedious and annoying and that's what some of them rail against. I think if the Big Two focused less on constant renumbering and relaunching and more on marketing their comic books to the general public, the numbering wont matter as much. Back 20+ years ago comic books seemed to be more ubiquitous in the public sphere. It's not like superheroes are some niche concept, they're everywhere. Cereal boxes, shoes, underwear, posters, toys, games, etc. It's that their source material has become a niche hobby. I think I read in another thread similar to this one where a person mentioned that it would go a long way if Marvel or DC used the films' exposure to market the source material (like an RDJ commercial holding up an Iron Man comic).

[WebLurker]

For a lot of people, they find it too daunting to jump into modern comics - the fact that they can't easily come in "on the ground floor" as it were presents a mental obstacle to them when it comes to the Big Two. I get that new readers find it easier to go with Image or other self-contained books rather than dive into a massive shared universe that has been in existence for decades.

But I don't think that it's any more difficult now to jump on than it was, say, thirty years ago. If anything, the internet has only made it easier for novice and lapsed readers to get up to speed. If someone sees the complexity of Marvel or DC as a barrier, that's their choice but I don't think there's much to do about that. Fans want that complexity and that deep, interconnected mythology. Marvel might start another version of the Ultimate universe at some point to be that easy-to-grasp entry point again for newcomers (in fact, I'd be very surprised if a new UU wasn't already in the works) but the fact is, any comic is a suitable jumping on point.

I can see what you mean.

Movies might be a useful gateway as well (I picked up Ultimate Spider-Man stuff since I liked the original movies and found the similarities made the transition easier).

I wonder if Marvel or DC having a "where to start" page on their website might make things friendlier for novices?

[Goggindowner]

I don't think that is even a problem. Big two comics take a lot of investment in either time, money or subscription, nobody is arguing against that. We all gravitate to what we find most enjoyable. Personally I get a different kind of enjoyment from reading an Image book to reading Marvel, but I enjoy both. For me it is worth the effort to dig in to the Marvel Universe, but then I am enjoying a lot of what I am reading from Marvel right now. If you are not then clearly 'don't do that.' What we are objecting to is the logic of that investment being a barrier to entry. That works fine as a justification for your actions, but I don't think you can generalise. The market generally follows demand. We get the Marvel people are prepared to pay for.

But if you look at the current sales figures, there isn't really anything to suggest that the current Marvel is something that more people are willing to pay for. Yes, the numbers over the industry are up, but that peak is pitiful compared to what these books used to sell. And even then, Marvel is currently getting slammed in the sales numbers by DC.

Jumping on points are way overplayed. If you're an imaginative child and a comic book catches your eye, you'll thumb through and read it and if it entices you you'll get the next issue. If they reference something in the past you're going to start begging your parents for some cash to get you back issues and go from there. Curiosity and willingness to continue overpowers any type of obstacles.

An experienced, longtime reader will find the incessant need for jumping on points to be tedious and annoying and that's what some of them rail against. I think if the Big Two focused less on constant renumbering and relaunching and more on marketing their comic books to the general public, the numbering wont matter as much. Back 20+ years ago comic books seemed to be more ubiquitous in the public sphere. It's not like superheroes are some niche concept, they're everywhere. Cereal boxes, shoes, underwear, posters, toys, games, etc. It's that their source material has become a niche hobby. I think I read in another thread similar to this one where a person mentioned that it would go a long way if Marvel or DC used the films' exposure to market the source material (like an RDJ commercial holding up an Iron Man comic).

Honestly I think this is a big part of it. When their are constantly number ones, it gets to a point where that isn't a jumping on point anymore. It becomes cumbersome when a new volume of a comic is launched every 6 to 18 months just because that years event came out and the world slightly changed. That's also part of the issue with trying to figure out which Spider Man or X-Men book to read. Do I want to even bother when this version of the characters will be tossed aside for the next event and new number one? How am I supposed to invest in this franchise over a long period of time if the publisher of said franchise can't even be consistent in how they present it?

The two most baffling examples are Ms Marvel and Squirrel Girl. What purpose to relaunching either of those titles with a new number one serve? The creative teams and directions didn't even change. But it still adds that extra little wrinkle to the research that you have to do to try out these books. If I want to start at the beginning, which beginning to I even start at? Will the series be relaunched again in a few months? Do I want to bother with this or just go read the next consecutive issue of Black Science?

In my case, the answer is to just go and read Black Science. Because it's publishing model doesn't feel like a gimmick. It's just a serialized comic book with a single creative vision over a course of years. Which is something that Marvel shows absolutely no interest in even trying anymore.

[Prof. Warren]

Honestly I think this is a big part of it. When their are constantly number ones, it gets to a point where that isn't a jumping on point anymore. It becomes cumbersome when a new volume of a comic is launched every 6 to 18 months just because that years event came out and the world slightly changed. That's also part of the issue with trying to figure out which Spider Man or X-Men book to read. Do I want to even bother when this version of the characters will be tossed aside for the next event and new number one? How am I supposed to invest in this franchise over a long period of time if the publisher of said franchise can't even be consistent in how they present it?

Again, you're trying to make something fairly easy sound impossible.

"How are you supposed to invest in this franchise over a long period of time?"

How about just buy it as long as you enjoy it? Get a single issue, or an arc, or a trade. If you like it, keep going. If you don't, don't. And if you're worried about whether Marvel is going to yank the rug out from under you just when you start to get attached, it's a safe bet that they're going to keep publishing characters like Spider-Man until long after you're dead.

Yeah, you might start buying a book that doesn't go more than an arc or two but that's how it's always been. Some books have short runs. Some creative teams break up prematurely. Things happen. Should you not invest in anything just because you're afraid it might end at some point?

The two most baffling examples are Ms Marvel and Squirrel Girl. What purpose to relaunching either of those titles with a new number one serve? The creative teams and directions didn't even change. But it still adds that extra little wrinkle to the research that you have to do to try out these books. If I want to start at the beginning, which beginning to I even start at? Will the series be relaunched again in a few months? Do I want to bother with this or just go read the next consecutive issue of Black Science?

Start with the first book in the first volume. Pretty easy. This is not confounding or challenging in the least.

Will it be relaunched again in a few months? Probably not as it's only been relaunched once after Secret Wars but if it were, would it really be that hard to figure out the next step in the reading order should be? Some people might say that the seasonal model makes it easier to follow a book in that one volume just follows the next.

In my case, the answer is to just go and read Black Science. Because it's publishing model doesn't feel like a gimmick. It's just a serialized comic book with a single creative vision over a course of years. Which is something that Marvel shows absolutely no interest in even trying anymore.

For some reason you seem to think that Marvel should be in the business of trying to be Image but Marvel is about telling serialized fiction within a shared universe in a process that's akin to relay racing. One creative team runs with a character for period of time, then hands off to the next team. That's not a gimmick, it's just the same process that's kept the MU humming since the beginning. While some creative teams can leave more of an imprint on a book and on a character than others, storytelling at Marvel or DC or any company that has a shared universe and where the company owns the intellectual property involved, isn't about "a single creative vision over a course of years." Writers at Marvel or DC aren't free to take a character anywhere they want without clearing it with editorial.

If you want a singular creative vision who has total control and is telling a finite story, then yes, Image has what you're looking for. And what they do is great. But the appeal of Marvel or DC is that their books represent an ongoing mythology that is constantly being built on and expanded with new voices always adding to that tapestry. It's big, it's unwieldy at times, and it is always growing.

If that's something you just don't have an interest in delving into, that's fine. But it's not as difficult or baffling to jump in as you're trying to make it seem.

[KingsLeadHat]

The problem I see is that in the last 20 years or so, the Marvel Universe (and certainly DC) has become incredibly convoluted, mainly do to events and retcon's. Spider-Man's current state is unrecognizable to any of the films or animated series which more or less present him, in a modern context, as the classic Lee/Ditko/Romita version. Compare this to the first 30 years of Marvel, which was incredibly easy to follow and "on model" with no major shake ups till around 1986/87 (Spidey's black costume, gray Hulk, Eric Masterson, etc.). Paradoxically, this is where the bulk of the classic story-lines and characters come from.