Was the late 90s/early 2000s the last 'normal' period for Marvel?

[JKtheMac]

But if you look at the current sales figures, there isn't really anything to suggest that the current Marvel is something that more people are willing to pay for. Yes, the numbers over the industry are up, but that peak is pitiful compared to what these books used to sell. And even then, Marvel is currently getting slammed in the sales numbers by DC.

Well then there lies our difference of base assumptions. I don't see it that way at all. Marvel are still in a highly successful period and you have to go a very long way back to see better sales figures. And they are not at all being slammed by anyone. Their figures remained consistent during the temporary peak of DC and the market as a whole has taken a few months of dip, IMO partly precipitated by DC's actions by creating a temporary credit crisis in the stores. But all of this was debated to death in other threads.

[JKtheMac]

The problem I see is that in the last 20 years or so, the Marvel Universe (and certainly DC) has become incredibly convoluted, mainly do to events and retcon's. Spider-Man's current state is unrecognizable to any of the films or animated series which more or less present him, in a modern context, as the classic Lee/Ditko/Romita version. Compare this to the first 30 years of Marvel, which was incredibly easy to follow and "on model" with no major shake ups till around 1986/87 (Spidey's black costume, gray Hulk, Eric Masterson, etc.). Paradoxically, this is where the bulk of the classic story-lines and characters come from.

But Marvel are well aware of this and the solution was technically to close the book on most of that convoluted continuity. The writers are now encouraged to write based upon the broad brushstrokes of that long history and only dip into the detail when the writer considers it relevant.

This is partly what Secret Wars was for. Drawing a line in the sand and making everything before a seperate chapter where the past is no longer looked at in the same way. We no longer have sliding timelines and the like, we have a recognition that the universe we are now in was constructed artificially just as comics are. A return to a more golden age philosophy that we shouldn't take it all too seriously.

[Prof. Warren]

But if you look at the current sales figures, there isn't really anything to suggest that the current Marvel is something that more people are willing to pay for. Yes, the numbers over the industry are up, but that peak is pitiful compared to what these books used to sell. And even then, Marvel is currently getting slammed in the sales numbers by DC.

It should be noted that the last time DC led Marvel in both categories in the Diamond sales charts was last September.

By what definition is that "currently getting slammed"?

[KingsLeadHat]

But Marvel are well aware of this and the solution was technically to close the book on most of that convoluted continuity. The writers are now encouraged to write based upon the broad brushstrokes of that long history and only dip into the detail when the writer considers it relevant.

This is partly what Secret Wars was for. Drawing a line in the sand and making everything before a seperate chapter where the past is no longer looked at in the same way. We no longer have sliding timelines and the like, we have a recognition that the universe we are now in was constructed artificially just as comics are. A return to a more golden age philosophy that we shouldn't take it all too seriously.

I agree that we shouldn't take it too seriously and that at a certain point (late 80's/early 90's) continuity became a big game that got in the way of telling good stories. That said, continuity worked for the first twenty years or so, mainly because there were so few titles. Part of the reason Marvel and DC have such a hard time today, and had to change their methodology, is because they flood the market.

The thing about Secret Wars is that it's almost like it didn't happen. I tend to forget that the the Marvel Universe was reset, given that that's a "DC thing" and it's hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that Marvel did it. Still, I think it's safe to say that modern Spider-Man begins with Brand New Day, as an example, regardless of Secret Wars. From my perspective, all the stuff that's been added since has convoluted the Spider-Man universe even more than the Clone Saga did.

[JKtheMac]

I agree that we shouldn't take it too seriously and that at a certain point (late 80's/early 90's) continuity became a big game that got in the way of telling good stories. That said, continuity worked for the first twenty years or so, mainly because there were so few titles. Part of the reason Marvel and DC have such a hard time today, and had to change their methodology, is because they flood the market.

The thing about Secret Wars is that it's almost like it didn't happen. I tend to forget that the the Marvel Universe was reset, given that that's a "DC thing" and it's hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that Marvel did it. Still, I think it's safe to say that modern Spider-Man begins with Brand New Day, as an example, regardless of Secret Wars. From my perspective, all the stuff that's been added since has convoluted the Spider-Man universe even more than the Clone Saga did.

But the convolution is all a state of mind. I think we can tell Slott doesn't worry about it. You can tell from the way he writes that he has a smile on his face getting to just play with whichever bits of the continuity he wants to at any one time. I would argue that's how we should read his books too. I know I do. ASM is not my favourite book but it makes me feel happy in a way very few books do.

Also, post Secret Wars is not supposed to feel significantly different. It's more conceptual than story focused. But at the same time it allows the writers freedom to try things and introduce characters that they wouldn't have been able to before. And when Aaron wrote that line in Dr. Strange about his timeline being five years it threw a spotlight on how the editorial perspective is very different now. We won't be getting saga books any time soon.

[Prof. Warren]

The thing about Secret Wars is that it's almost like it didn't happen. I tend to forget that the the Marvel Universe was reset, given that that's a "DC thing" and it's hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that Marvel did it.

But they really didn't "reset." Continuity is unchanged. SW just allowed elements like Miles Morales, Jimmy Hudson, The Maker and others to be incorporated into the main MU.

[JKtheMac]

But they really didn't "reset." Continuity is unchanged. SW just allowed elements like Miles Morales, Jimmy Hudson, The Maker and others to be incorporated into the main MU.

They did a total reboot and they didn't at the same time. It isn't the same universe, the fundamental laws of physics are different, the way time works has been explained differently, all these things add up to a line drawn. A point at which the rules all changed. That combined with the editorial shift of emphasis over the last few years results in a kind of stealth reboot. From now on they can do things differently and always point back to that line.

We are seeing so many little things that point to the fact we are just as much in the 1610 as we are in the 616. Marvel are going to play with this idea little by little.

[Prof. Warren]

They did a total reboot and they didn't at the same time. It isn't the same universe, the fundamental laws of physics are different, the way time works has been explained differently, all these things add up to a line drawn. A point at which the rules all changed. That combined with the editorial shift of emphasis over the last few years results in a kind of stealth reboot. From now on they can do things differently and always point back to that line.

We are seeing so many little things that point to the fact we are just as much in the 1610 as we are in the 616. Marvel are going to play with this idea little by little.

So far any changes to continuity seem incremental at best but it'll be interesting to see if Aaron's Legacy one-shot plays into this at all.

Also curious as to where Bendis is going to take things in Jessica Jones - if the talk of people noticing that the universe has changed is just a wink to readers or if it's going to become a bigger storyline.

[Goggindowner]

Well then there lies our difference of base assumptions. I don't see it that way at all. Marvel are still in a highly successful period and you have to go a very long way back to see better sales figures. And they are not at all being slammed by anyone. Their figures remained consistent during the temporary peak of DC and the market as a whole has taken a few months of dip, IMO partly precipitated by DC's actions by creating a temporary credit crisis in the stores. But all of this was debated to death in other threads.

It should be noted that the last time DC led Marvel in both categories in the Diamond sales charts was last September.

By what definition is that "currently getting slammed"?

I went back and looked at the sales over the last few months and admit that I miss stepped on that comment.

Then I went back and skimmed through some of the sales information going back to 1999 to now, and I have to say that I was wrong about some things. Much to my surprise, the sales numbers from then to now aren't really that different. So I stand corrected.

So I guess to circle back to the original topic a bit, when was the last "normal" version of the Marvel U? Of course, I said it early on and I'll repeat it, there isn't really a normal version. There is just versions from certain eras, and depending on what was going on when you first started, that is either your normal or it isn't.

My version of the X-Men is from Volume 2 issue 1 through the end of Whedon's run on Astonishing.

My version of Spider Man is the early to mid 90's, then the JMS and JRJR run.

And for the most part, the rest of MY versions of these characters were from the Ultimate line, which is actually something I am just now realizing. I never cared that much about Iron Man, Captain America, or the Avengers in general. My first real dive into those characters was through Ultimates. I also really enjoyed Ultimate X-Men, more so than the 616 versions of those characters at the time. It was a much smaller line of books, the continuity was cleaner, and for the most part creators were allowed to go in whatever direction they wanted without much interference from events.

So I guess I just pinned down exactly why I struggle now to get interested in Marvel. They killed "my version" of their characters and universe in Ultimatum, and now that universe doesn't even exist.

It also kind of shines a light on why I was so into Wildstorm back in the day, too. Same as the Ultimate Marvel U, it was a smaller line with creative directed stories.

Maybe I was never that into Marvel in the first place. Maybe it was always just the X-Men.....

[Prof. Warren]

So I guess I just pinned down exactly why I struggle now to get interested in Marvel. They killed "my version" of their characters and universe in Ultimatum, and now that universe doesn't even exist.

One of the biggest mistakes Marvel ever made was screwing up the Ultimate universe. Ultimatum killed that line. It never recovered.

I hope that one day they'll do a new version of the Ultimate universe, taking with them the lessons of what went wrong the last time.

The Ultimate universe proved there's an audience out there looking to get into Marvel but who don't want to wade into decades of continuity. They'd be crazy not to try it again with a fresh start.

[HaveAtThee]

The problem I see is that in the last 20 years or so, the Marvel Universe (and certainly DC) has become incredibly convoluted, mainly do to events and retcon's. Spider-Man's current state is unrecognizable to any of the films or animated series which more or less present him, in a modern context, as the classic Lee/Ditko/Romita version. Compare this to the first 30 years of Marvel, which was incredibly easy to follow and "on model" with no major shake ups till around 1986/87 (Spidey's black costume, gray Hulk, Eric Masterson, etc.). Paradoxically, this is where the bulk of the classic story-lines and characters come from.

[KingsLeadHat]

One of the biggest mistakes Marvel ever made was screwing up the Ultimate universe. Ultimatum killed that line. It never recovered.

I hope that one day they'll do a new version of the Ultimate universe, taking with them the lessons of what went wrong the last time.

The Ultimate universe proved there's an audience out there looking to get into Marvel but who don't want to wade into decades of continuity. They'd be crazy not to try it again with a fresh start.

In retrospect, I'm not sure if an alternate universe was the way to go. I don't see why Bendis and Bagely simply couldn't have retold Spider-Man's origin, in continuity, while simply expanding on the original Lee/Ditko origin. You'd still be playing in a very simplified early version of the Marvel Universe that would be very easy for new readers to follow. Alternate universes/timelines, while at one time fun, need to be shelved as they've become a massively overused trope in my opinion that have done more harm than good when it comes to convoluting continuity.

[Prof. Warren]

In retrospect, I'm not sure if an alternate universe was the way to go. I don't see why Bendis and Bagely simply couldn't have retold Spider-Man's origin, in continuity, while simply expanding on the original Lee/Ditko origin. You'd still be playing in a very simplified early version of the Marvel Universe that would be very easy for new readers to follow. Alternate universes/timelines, while at one time fun, need to be shelved as they've become a massively overused trope in my opinion that have done more harm than good when it comes to convoluting continuity.

Alternate universes can be hard to maintain but great stories can come of them. The Ultimate universe was incredibly exciting for a long time and it wouldn't have had the same feeling if it weren't its own thing, separate from the MU.

[Goggindowner]

In retrospect, I'm not sure if an alternate universe was the way to go. I don't see why Bendis and Bagely simply couldn't have retold Spider-Man's origin, in continuity, while simply expanding on the original Lee/Ditko origin. You'd still be playing in a very simplified early version of the Marvel Universe that would be very easy for new readers to follow. Alternate universes/timelines, while at one time fun, need to be shelved as they've become a massively overused trope in my opinion that have done more harm than good when it comes to convoluting continuity.

Only because Marvel decided to fold the universes together, which was, IMO, a stupid idea anyway.

An alternate universe opens up every door, because no part of it is tied into what is going on in the mainline books. Just retelling Spider Man's origin with a flash back series or something would eventually run into all kinds of handicaps and REALLY muck up continuity if the writers ever decided to do something original with it.

Marvel always did a very good job of flagging their Ultimate imprint on the covers. There was never, in my memory, any instance of looking at a book and not knowing immediately that this was the Ultimate Universe and not the Marvel U.

[WebLurker]

In retrospect, I'm not sure if an alternate universe was the way to go. I don't see why Bendis and Bagely simply couldn't have retold Spider-Man's origin, in continuity, while simply expanding on the original Lee/Ditko origin. You'd still be playing in a very simplified early version of the Marvel Universe that would be very easy for new readers to follow. Alternate universes/timelines, while at one time fun, need to be shelved as they've become a massively overused trope in my opinion that have done more harm than good when it comes to convoluting continuity.

That could get confusing real easy (like when Spidey was coming out, no one seemed to know if it was a 616 prequel or a new continuity), when it's simpler to say "it's it's own little world." Doing it as a reboot of sorts allowed Ultimate to go its own way, have different elements in play, and even do stuff with the benefit of hindsight. As a for example, one change that Ultimate did was make Mary Jane a major supporting character from square one, something that a 616 series couldn't do.

Also, in the case of Ultimate, I don't recall it really being treated as an alternate universe, per say. It was for the most part just treated as its own series, like how 616 comics were.