Future of Superman in DCEU

[ekrolo2]

The only way to fix Snyder's NotSoSuperman and the Snyderverse is to have Snyder's Clark meet Jonathan's spirit in the afterlife. Jonathan tells Clark "nothing's as it should be," and then Jonathan is revealed to be Metron, who then restores Snyder Clark to his true self by allowing him to remember the timeline as it was before it was altered by Darkseid. Clark remembers how things really were: no fear-mongering Jonathan, a career seeking the truth as a journalist with world traveling before becoming Superman, being forced to imprison Zod and his crew in the Phantom Zone, and Bruce as a friend and not a demented killer. Superman returns to guide Affleck and Wonderless Woman in building a league to stop Steppenwolf, which has the effect of restoring Bruce and the rest of the league's memories. The universe itself is still fractured, requiring the JL to team up with Metron in facing Darkseid in Justice League: Rebirth.

So, the worst DC story decisions all assaulting you in movie form. I think I'd rather see everything comics related die than this.

[Adekis]

I think the key difference between Cavill and Miller Superman with regards to Batman is that the latter got to know him and because of that is aware of Bruce's virtues by the time they have to come to blows. He has harsh and valid criticisms of Bruce's way of doing things but he knows the other stuff.

I don't think that's quite right- nothing indicates that Kent and Batman ever clashed before in DKR. I mean there's a few things in All-Star Batman, written like 20 years later, that indicate that they were on rocky terms at the start of their friendship, but even then Clark never goes to the extent that his film counterpart does of saying "hey, quit entirely", and he seems less concerned with Bruce's actions than with perception- how he makes super-heroes look as a whole. The criticisms are secondary for Miller's Superman - secondary to his own image. Later on in DKR when Kent works for the President, the problem is the same - "Bruce pisses off powerful people". Meanwhile, for Snyder and Cavill's Superman, the moral objections fuel his whole struggle against the Bat.

Cavill doesn't know the other stuff, to him, Batman is just a psychotic vigilante who targets anybody he wants and no one cares about it or they support him as is the case with the GCPD. I'd also imagine Clark is probably irritated by this hypocrisy in public opinion with himself trying to do the right thing and everyone moving against him while Batman is a brutal vigilante/murderer and barely anyone registers this.

But you're right in that, despite some big similarities, I don't think Cavill's Superman is just a straight up version of Miller's Yes Man, even with a lot of parallels between them. Just like how Affleck's is a lot like Returns Batman but also quite a bit more broken down morally or how Lex is Azzarello Man of Steel Lex but with a more religious/mythological bent.

That's a really good point about the hypocrisy regarding social reaction to Batman and Superman. I suppose that Kal really wants to take on the system that allows Bruce to continue hurting the poor while the media continually ignores him, but he can't, so Bruce is the target instead.

I do think that perception must come into play for Snyder's Superman as well as Miller's, now that you mention it, but the relationship is almost reversed. Miller's Bruce has a bad image, and that's the weak-willed Superman's problem with him. Meanwhile Snyder's Superman has a bad image, and he thinks it unfair that Bruce doesn't despite their differences in action.

As for the connection between the "real" Batman, Miller's Batman and Snyder's Batman, I see a timeline revolving around Jason's death. In the DCU, Jason's death made Bruce start getting angrier and sloppier in the field until Tim brings him out of him. In DKR's untold backstory, I like to think that Tim doesn't bring Bruce out of it and he goes over the edge, then retires. "I like to think you killed a man, it's the romantic in me". In the Snyderverse though, it's like Bruce goes over the edge and just keeps going, driven by the primacy of ridding the world of what he thinks mistakenly is an alien menace. It takes almost murdering Superman to realize that he'd gone too far this time, but with the trailer's "I'm real when it's useful" line, he seems to be taking Alfred's advice to use "Batman" less frequently to heart.

I haven't read Azzarello's Luthor in like a decade but I thought that Eisenberg's take was more or less identical to Spacey's in Returns except with less real estate and more daddy issues. They're both brilliant and manipulative amoral psychos who equate Superman with the Greek Gods and themselves with Prometheus.

So, the worst DC story decisions all assaulting you in movie form. I think I'd rather see everything comics related die than this.

Ha! Agreed 100%!

Which source material? Almost 80 years of stories here...I think you meant to say "not my preferred versions".

I don't understand it sometimes- Man of Steel and Dawn of Justice definitely and demonstrably aren't my preferred versions but I still like them. My ideal Superman is like a twenty-five year old roughneck genius who can only half fly! Maybe it's the lack of material for that version, but the fact that Snyder's Superman isn't "Muh Superman" doesn't stop me from thinking he's a well-done exploration of the character in some entertaining, thought-provoking movies! So you (you know, the colloquial 'you') have a favorite Superman and he's Elliot Maggin's version who never kills anyone. Why should that lead you to immediately hate all other versions?

[ekrolo2]

As for the connection between the "real" Batman, Miller's Batman and Snyder's Batman, I see a timeline revolving around Jason's death. In the DCU, Jason's death made Bruce start getting angrier and sloppier in the field until Tim brings him out of him. In DKR's untold backstory, I like to think that Tim doesn't bring Bruce out of it and he goes over the edge, then retires. "I like to think you killed a man, it's the romantic in me". In the Snyderverse though, it's like Bruce goes over the edge and just keeps going, driven by the primacy of ridding the world of what he thinks mistakenly is an alien menace. It takes almost murdering Superman to realize that he'd gone too far this time, but with the trailer's "I'm real when it's useful" line, he seems to be taking Alfred's advice to use "Batman" less frequently to heart.

This is the reason why I'm fine with Batman killing and branding people up until the Martha scene. He makes constant excuses for his actions like "Superman did this or that" or "We've always been criminals" or "Criminals are like weeds" along with how he dehumanizes Superman as first a God then as lowly as an animal.

It's afterward where I think Snyder kind of screws it up. The warehouse segment is cool to see but its easily the Malibu Attack Sequence of the movie where internal logic and character consistency is taking a backseat to the cool stuff happening and both sequences hurt BvS and Iron Man 3.

I don't understand it sometimes- Man of Steel and Dawn of Justice definitely and demonstrably aren't my preferred versions but I still like them. My ideal Superman is like a twenty-five year old roughneck genius who can only half fly! Maybe it's the lack of material for that version, but the fact that Snyder's Superman isn't "Muh Superman" doesn't stop me from thinking he's a well-done exploration of the character in some entertaining, thought-provoking movies! So you (you know, the colloquial 'you') have a favorite Superman and he's Elliot Maggin's version who never kills anyone. Why should that lead you to immediately hate all other versions?

Comic book fandom has this weird mentality about these things. As someone on scans daily put it, they won't say they dislike a pink shirt and just end it there. They'll go the extra mile to explain why the pink shirt is an afront to the mythology of shirts and it must never have come into existence.

[Adekis]

This is the reason why I'm fine with Batman killing and branding people up until the Martha scene. He makes constant excuses for his actions like "Superman did this or that" or "We've always been criminals" or "Criminals are like weeds" along with how he dehumanizes Superman as first a God then as lowly as an animal.

It's afterward where I think Snyder kind of screws it up. The warehouse segment is cool to see but its easily the Malibu Attack Sequence of the movie where internal logic and character consistency is taking a backseat to the cool stuff happening and both sequences hurt BvS and Iron Man 3.

Yeah exactly. I don't mind Batman using lethal force because he's so obviously problematized.

Regarding the warehouse scene, I do notice that Snyder tends to weirdly divorce his action scenes and his characterization sometimes. After watching Mad Max:Fury Road I noticed that despite the characters not really talking very much, their characters are conveyed through their actions during an intense scene. Meanwhile over in the DCU, I can argue that Superman holds back and never tries to hit Bruce with a lethal punch even once during their fight, but it's not totally clear that that's intended. Then (more to the point) Batman (probably) kills a bunch of crooks right after realizing that he'd gone too far. I suppose you can defend killing Anatoli Knyazev specifically because the thug pulls the trigger himself, but Bruce still set it up, and all those other crooks are probably not in great shape either. On the other hand, he doesn't kill Luthor, so that's good I guess.

You know what though? I still like Snyder's take better than Batman Begins paying all this lip service to Silver Age morals while simultaneously blowing up an entire dojo full of people.

Comic book fandom has this weird mentality about these things. As someone on scans daily put it, they won't say they dislike a pink shirt and just end it there. They'll go the extra mile to explain why the pink shirt is an affront to the mythology of shirts and it must never have come into existence.

Ha! Too true. I'm probably guilty of it myself at some point but I really try not to be.

[ekrolo2]

Yeah exactly. I don't mind Batman using lethal force because he's so obviously problematized.

Regarding the warehouse scene, I do notice that Snyder tends to weirdly divorce his action scenes and his characterization sometimes. After watching Mad Max:Fury Road I noticed that despite the characters not really talking very much, their characters are conveyed through their actions during an intense scene. Meanwhile over in the DCU, I can argue that Superman holds back and never tries to hit Bruce with a lethal punch even once during their fight, but it's not totally clear that that's intended. Then (more to the point) Batman (probably) kills a bunch of crooks right after realizing that he'd gone too far. I suppose you can defend killing Anatoli Knyazev specifically because the thug pulls the trigger himself, but Bruce still set it up, and all those other crooks are probably not in great shape either. On the other hand, he doesn't kill Luthor, so that's good I guess.

You know what though? I still like Snyder's take better than Batman Begins paying all this lip service to Silver Age morals while simultaneously blowing up an entire dojo full of people.

Snyder definitely has a problem with letting his action sequences convey what the characters are thinking behind the action but I don't think it's too much of an issue throughout most of BvS. I've already talked about the warehouse scene but I think he needed to make a few changes to the big fight too. For one, he should've cut down the amount of time Superman could talk to Batman (either that or establish a TDKReturns type thing where Batman can't hear Superman through this big ass suit over his everything). I also think it was a mistake to keep the music. The fight is clearly meant to be like Batman vs Bane in Rises, one guy beating down on another guy in brutal fashion and Rises wisely kept the music out to emphasize the brutality, BvS should've done the same.

Snyder does semi-rightfully get generalized as a dude who just wants cool shit to happen but I think that, majoratively, he reigned himself in and respected Terrio's script for about 80-85% of it but he should've tightened it up even more. This story was always gonna be divisive so covering your ass as much as possible would've been wise.

[Fearless Heart]

I'm really excited for Superman in the new film! I always had trouble connecting with Supes because he never had any struggles that I could find compelling. I really loved Christopher Reeve's performance, and Superman the Movie is a great film, but I just saw Superman as a silly fluff character.

I tried reading multiple comics, and I found the character boring without Christopher Reeve's performance. I never found him to be a believable character because all great women and men I know suffer immensely throughout their lives, and any struggle Supes had was a joke to me.

Zack Snyder's Superman films weren't nearly as good as Superman the Movie, but it was the first time I connected with Superman. It's exactly how I thought Superman would be if he existed. All the guy does is go to work and help people, and gets demonized. Could he have handled the situations better? Yeah, but nothing is perfect. I hated the "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" line from Batman Begins, but I still really liked that Batman!

Superman never stopped fighting and hearing him have self-doubts and seeing his respond to his parents fear, humanized a him. And seeing the Kents express their fears, and show their flaws made his struggle to become his own man more interesting.

I also never understood how much self-control Superman must need with all that power, and the films helped me understand how Clark's alien origins and physiology isolated him from humanity. I always understood how much of a struggle Flash must have living at our speed, but with Superman, I was totally close-minded.

I just read Superman Birthright, and I loved it! I tried reading if previously, but I was very pessimistic and cynical with the character until seeing the Zack Snyder films.

Him and crew helped me appreciate the character, and maybe I won't like the films as much if I see them again, but I've moved on with my life and I'm stoked to see him return in Justice League!


In regards to how they cover up the Clark Kent situation, I don't know, but I think the Clark Kent identity is very important to Superman's humanity, so I hope they figure something out!

[Prime]

I'm really excited for Superman in the new film! I always had trouble connecting with Supes because he never had any struggles that I could find compelling. I really loved Christopher Reeve's performance, and Superman the Movie is a great film, but I just saw Superman as a silly fluff character.

I tried reading multiple comics, and I found the character boring without Christopher Reeve's performance. I never found him to be a believable character because all great women and men I know suffer immensely throughout their lives, and any struggle Supes had was a joke to me.

Zack Snyder's Superman films weren't nearly as good as Superman the Movie, but it was the first time I connected with Superman. It's exactly how I thought Superman would be if he existed. All the guy does is go to work and help people, and gets demonized. Could he have handled the situations better? Yeah, but nothing is perfect. I hated the "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" line from Batman Begins, but I still really liked that Batman!

Superman never stopped fighting and hearing him have self-doubts and seeing his respond to his parents fear, humanized a him. And seeing the Kents express their fears, and show their flaws made his struggle to become his own man more interesting.

I also never understood how much self-control Superman must need with all that power, and the films helped me understand how Clark's alien origins and physiology isolated him from humanity. I always understood how much of a struggle Flash must have living at our speed, but with Superman, I was totally close-minded.

I just read Superman Birthright, and I loved it! I tried reading if previously, but I was very pessimistic and cynical with the character until seeing the Zack Snyder films.

Him and crew helped me appreciate the character, and maybe I won't like the films as much if I see them again, but I've moved on with my life and I'm stoked to see him return in Justice League!


In regards to how they cover up the Clark Kent situation, I don't know, but I think the Clark Kent identity is very important to Superman's humanity, so I hope they figure something out!

I may not like the movies but it's always good to see a new Superman fan. Welcome to the Superman board buddy. I would recommend All Star Superman and Kingdom Come as well.

[The World]

Go full on Silver Age baby, have him Super-hypnotize the whole planet.

[Jim Kelly]

This whole discussion is kind of moot given (spoilers) Superman/Clark died in the last movie (/spoilers).

The next movie will have to feature a new Superman. That swings open the door to who they might cast and what kind of Superman it will be. Or they might just go with a Superwoman.

[Lokimaru]

Yeah exactly. I don't mind Batman using lethal force because he's so obviously problematized.

Regarding the warehouse scene, I do notice that Snyder tends to weirdly divorce his action scenes and his characterization sometimes. After watching Mad Max:Fury Road I noticed that despite the characters not really talking very much, their characters are conveyed through their actions during an intense scene. Meanwhile over in the DCU, I can argue that Superman holds back and never tries to hit Bruce with a lethal punch even once during their fight, but it's not totally clear that that's intended. Then (more to the point) Batman (probably) kills a bunch of crooks right after realizing that he'd gone too far. I suppose you can defend killing Anatoli Knyazev specifically because the thug pulls the trigger himself, but Bruce still set it up, and all those other crooks are probably not in great shape either. On the other hand, he doesn't kill Luthor, so that's good I guess.

You know what though? I still like Snyder's take better than Batman Begins paying all this lip service to Silver Age morals while simultaneously blowing up an entire dojo full of people.



Ha! Too true. I'm probably guilty of it myself at some point but I really try not to be.

I noticed that in the theater that Clark only throws Bruce around and never strikes him full on when he has his powers while Bruce like Zod uses several potentially lethal techniques on Clark, as with the Zod fight only his extreme durability saved him from serious injury.

[Clark_Kent]

This whole discussion is kind of moot given (spoilers) Superman/Clark died in the last movie (/spoilers).

The next movie will have to feature a new Superman. That swings open the door to who they might cast and what kind of Superman it will be. Or they might just go with a Superwoman.

Not sure if serious...

[AquaLantern]

This whole discussion is kind of moot given (spoilers) Superman/Clark died in the last movie (/spoilers).

The next movie will have to feature a new Superman. That swings open the door to who they might cast and what kind of Superman it will be. Or they might just go with a Superwoman.

I was more concern with Clark Kent, since that's Superman's way with being in touch with humanity.

[Fearless Heart]

I may not like the movies but it's always good to see a new Superman fan. Welcome to the Superman board buddy. I would recommend All Star Superman and Kingdom Come as well.

Thanks!

I just edited my post because I wrote way too much.

[CharlesInCharge]

I still they think they should ignore it. Any major effort to address will just come off as contrived and keep the current storyteller from operating. Once Snyder's gone, they need to move past his material and soft reboot this junk. Hell, I'm getting to a point where I wouldn't even mind if they straight up started recasting characters and went after a hard reboot.

I think a hard reboot is the best option at this point. Mind you, if it happens I won't be as happy as I was when the Amazing Spider-Man series was cancelled since, unlike that version of Peter Parker, I actually like Cavill's Superman.

[Francisco]

Darkseid obtains the anti-life equation. In order to save humanity and the entire universe from his rule, Superman and the league battle the tyrant god. When the dust settles all knowledge of Superman's identity as Clark Kent, his death, the arrival of the kryptonian invaders, Batman branding and killing people are erased from the timeline. We are back at the moment when Clark found the scout ship but this time he remembers what went down after he activated Jor-El's AI. When Zod and the Kryptonians arrive Clark already has a plan in place to take them back into the phantom zone. Then he flies to Gotham and the movie ends with him introducing himself to Bruce Wayne and talking about finding the others and forming a Justice League.