The Ultimate Superboy Prime Is Behind Rebirth Speculation Thread

[Atomic Man]

This is a place to share any reasons you may have to suspect that Superboy Prime is involved in Rebirth/Doomsday Clock. No theory is too outlandish and this isn't a place to bash someone for their ideas.

I wasn't originally convinced that Prime was involved in any of this until he was nowhere to be found in the aftermath of Superman Reborn. I then began to give the notion that Prime is part of the Rebirth picture more serious thought.

The last time we saw Prime prior to Flashpoint, he'd been trapped by Connor and the Titans in the Source Wall

titans.jpg

Prime is not seen again outside of the summaries of past Crises in both Multiversity and Convergence. It's in the Multiversity Guidebook, however, that Prime comes up again and in a familiar yet different scenario. Pre-Flashpoint, Prime destroyed Earth-51, a "perfect Earth" at first. In the Guidebook, a new "perfect Earth" is destroyed by Prime's "rampage," leaving behind the "Cosmic Grail," a "solitary, immensely powerful fragment" of Earth-15.

earth15.jpg


I then read the theory I'm sure everyone else has seen in various places online, that Prime may have read Watchmen at some point and decided to either recreate himself in Manhattan's image, or manipulate the Watchmen characters so as to tamper with the timeline of the core DCU (New Earth/Earth-Zero).

I tend to think the second theory has the most merit. The fact that Prime and Manhattan's girlfriends are named Laurie, while a seeming coincidence, is perhaps used as a clue in The Flash #22's epilogue. I think it's especially telling that Manhattan is telling Laurie that all people are puppets of a greater force, including himself, though he can "see the strings." We then see the button seemingly transforming into an \S/ shield, though it appears to not only be battered, but 3-D and hard as well.

The image from that epilogue bears a striking similarity to this image from Infinite Crisis:

shieldcomparison.jpg

This is further evidence to me that Superboy Prime may indeed be Rebirth's puppet-master, manipulating Manhattan's powers to tinker with the DCU. Who knows what kind of power Prime gained from the Source Wall? Perhaps he traveled through the Bleed and found the "Cosmic Grail" on Earth-15? Perhaps his future self as the Time Trapper assisted him in manipulating someone as powerful as Manhattan?

Finally, as a sort of "honorable mention," lots of folks have said that Prime's one glowing eye in that IC image is similar to the image of Oz from Superman #19 and that Oz wears robes like the Time Trapper does. I don't know if that's terribly valid, but perhaps Prime is hiding in plain sight as Oz?

Let's hear your own theories and suspicions!

[Buried Alien]

Some questions: if Superboy-Prime is powerful and sophisticated enough to pull this off, why does he need Dr. Manhattan? Why involve the WATCHMEN world at all?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Black Angel]

Man i would so love if Prime is involved because they making Dr. Manhattan too OP hell he sounds now like he may be on Spectre level.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

Been advocating this for awhile as a thing that'd be good even if I don't find it likely; here's my arguments:

* He’s been the Time Trapper, so he’s acquainted both with cosmic alterations and rocking the evil robe look.

* His whole deal since becoming a villain has been “The DCU must be like this, and I will eviscerate anything between points A and B”. This would just be pivoting from the Silver Age to the Dark Age, explaining for instance how and why Vertigo and Wildstorm got integrated into the main universe - if he got way into 80s and 90s comics for all the wrong reasons, of course he’d think they should be in there.

* He vanished from Earth-Prime in 1985. The first major comic after that for him to read when he got back would have been Watchmen.

* Oz’s symbol is literally ‘nostalgia’.

* His one direct victim so far is Tim Drake, who he’d hate both from before as part of the 90s, and now for being too bright and silly. Flashpoint also specifically screwed over the Flash Family, who he has a grudge against (especially Bart Allen, who got off the worst by being turned evil), and Kon-El/Superboy, his ‘nemesis’.

* His defining visual aesthetic is to wear a doofy armor version of the Superman costume.

* And given they’re already into visually homaging Watchmen, well, there’s something pretty obvious right there:



So yeah, Superboy Prime finally makes it home and discovers Watchmen and the 90s happened, gets super into it, and decides DC needs to be that now, smashing it together with everything complicated and harsh and depressing and dumb he can force in, now trying as his endgame to just plain make Watchmen a part of that world. Everything dumb about the New 52 would magically be transmogrified into genius, because the understanding is that it’s because there’s a dumb fanboy behind the wheel. And it would partially redeem the very concept of DC Rebirth, since it would turn out Johns & company were spiritually admitting their culpability in what DC’s become instead of just pointing the finger at Moore. Which would of course be the main reason this definitely won’t happen, but I feel safe in saying this would work better than him turning out to be Ozymandias or whatever. Plus Mr. Oz constantly enigmatically muttering to himself like an idiot’s idea of a mysterious mastermind figure would go from “oh my god, this is how Dan Jurgens thinks Ozymandias speaks? Jesus Christ, this is just painful” to hilarious, because now you’d know that after every vague dramatic declaration, he’d be thinking to himself “yes, nailed it, I sounded like such a badass, they’ll never guess your sweet plan Clark, you’re so much cooler than these losers”.

[DragonPiece]

Only thing putting me away is how most of the people saying prime are also the people who thought prime was fake Clark..

[Atomic Man]

Some questions: if Superboy-Prime is powerful and sophisticated enough to pull this off, why does he need Dr. Manhattan? Why involve the WATCHMEN world at all?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

"What does God need with a starship?" Good point. Perhaps since Prime isn't yet Time Trapper, he needs Manhattan's reality-manipulating powers? Remember, the entire Multiverse (at least the local 52 of this orrery) was altered in the Flashpoint, which would require a great deal of power that Prime doesn't yet have.

Been advocating this for awhile as a thing that'd be good even if I don't find it likely; here's my arguments:

* He’s been the Time Trapper, so he’s acquainted both with cosmic alterations and rocking the evil robe look.

* His whole deal since becoming a villain has been “The DCU must be like this, and I will eviscerate anything between points A and B”. This would just be pivoting from the Silver Age to the Dark Age, explaining for instance how and why Vertigo and Wildstorm got integrated into the main universe - if he got way into 80s and 90s comics for all the wrong reasons, of course he’d think they should be in there.

* He vanished from Earth-Prime in 1985. The first major comic after that for him to read when he got back would have been Watchmen.

* Oz’s symbol is literally ‘nostalgia’.

* His one direct victim so far is Tim Drake, who he’d hate both from before as part of the 90s, and now for being too bright and silly. Flashpoint also specifically screwed over the Flash Family, who he has a grudge against (especially Bart Allen, who got off the worst by being turned evil), and Kon-El/Superboy, his ‘nemesis’.

* His defining visual aesthetic is to wear a doofy armor version of the Superman costume.

* And given they’re already into visually homaging Watchmen, well, there’s something pretty obvious right there:



So yeah, Superboy Prime finally makes it home and discovers Watchmen and the 90s happened, gets super into it, and decides DC needs to be that now, smashing it together with everything complicated and harsh and depressing and dumb he can force in, now trying as his endgame to just plain make Watchmen a part of that world. Everything dumb about the New 52 would magically be transmogrified into genius, because the understanding is that it’s because there’s a dumb fanboy behind the wheel. And it would partially redeem the very concept of DC Rebirth, since it would turn out Johns & company were spiritually admitting their culpability in what DC’s become instead of just pointing the finger at Moore. Which would of course be the main reason this definitely won’t happen, but I feel safe in saying this would work better than him turning out to be Ozymandias or whatever. Plus Mr. Oz constantly enigmatically muttering to himself like an idiot’s idea of a mysterious mastermind figure would go from “oh my god, this is how Dan Jurgens thinks Ozymandias speaks? Jesus Christ, this is just painful” to hilarious, because now you’d know that after every vague dramatic declaration, he’d be thinking to himself “yes, nailed it, I sounded like such a badass, they’ll never guess your sweet plan Clark, you’re so much cooler than these losers”.

Excellent analysis.

Only thing putting me away is how most of the people saying prime are also the people who thought prime was fake Clark..

Why are the two mutually exclusive?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I think it's a forgone conclusion Superboy-Prime will be involved in some manner, in addition to Kal-L and Lois of Earth-2, since it has been clear since Infinite Crisis that Johns had bigger plans for them, with both of them discovering something as they died. Johns even followed up on it when he had Power Girl visit the new Earth-2, only to discover that Superman & Lois were still missing there and that there was another Power Girl in her place. There was definitely more going on to that story. I guarantee you his final statement on the characters will not be the desecration of their corpses by the Black Lanterns. Johns says he's been building up to this for years. I believe him.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Does this look like something written by a guy who intends for their final appearance to be as zombies?
Death_of_Kal-L_01.jpg

[DragonPiece]

Why are the two mutually exclusive?

They aren't, I'm just kidding around. You guys theories sound plausible for sure. I'm just keeping a open mind

[Atomic Man]

They aren't, I'm just kidding around. You guys theories sound plausible for sure. I'm just keeping a open mind

Same here. I really don't want Prime to return at all unless it's either to be redeemed or to reveal that Flashpoint erased all the horrible things he's done and he's now happily living on Earth-33 (post-Flashpoint Earth-Prime). The implications of Superman and Doctor Manhattan facing off is far more interesting, but the meta nature of Superboy Prime's powers and history certainly means he could very well be involved.

[victorsage]

Does this look like something written by a guy who intends for their final appearance to be as zombies?
Death_of_Kal-L_01.jpg

The original image has Kal-L saying something. It says

"....One day you'll see...."

"....They're still out there..."

"....Lois."

Then he dies and it's the image of Classic Lois and Clark.

[Starsky_Hutch76]

The way Kal-L died in Infinite Crisis, the transformation of Superboy-Prime, and the way these characters appeared in Blackest Night .... I'd say his respect for them is suspect.