FemThor vs Doomsday

[big_adventure]

I'm not much cheered by "it's okay, all of Asgard was crap also!", for some mysterious reason.

Time for some more amnesia dust!

[Anarchist]

Where exactly did Jane 'fight' the Phoenix Force?
All I could find on the matter was this
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...5855423-05.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...5855424-06.jpg


And that's basically Phoenix telling Jane to sod off....

[eaebiakuya]

Jane is nowhere close to Skyfather level.

She made a hard fight against Gladiator. A draw.
She traded punchs with Odinson...no winner at all.
She lost bad to the destroyer.


I will show here, how Aaron portrays a Odin in his peak.

Odin >>> Mother of Storms

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/DEocvpQTpfl...mcFyf63ta1o=s0
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/mInTPfFOiOy...e7UhvG-PPxk=s0
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/UW0qK8kDwT_...LcbKbEuf4as=s0
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/tduwroQ0mda...Twtl9YzqO9k=s0
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/O-8pVMvQZuz...OasQmlykruc=s0

Also, someone told her sending Odin to a Saturn moon is a great feat? Old King Thor, send Gorr light years away:

http://imgur.com/DLGbY5x

And Old King Thor was without the Odin force for ages. He just started to felling it back when he did that. When Jane start to send people light years away, maybe we can talk about her being a Skyfather.

Now, what we can say is: Maybe Mjolnir is capable of doing galaxy level feats? Well...yes, but...this is nothing new! Thor, in few ocasions did perform galaxy level feats with mjolnir, and i will list then:

1) Absorb a galaxy buster explosion: http://s388.photobucket.com/user/One...ption.jpg.html

2) Thor godblast destroy the Celestial Dome: https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...2860-26809.jpg

3) Thor, with 2 Mjolnirs, absorb the Godbomb (who would kill ALL Gods, ALL skyfathers, from everysingle timeline): http://imgur.com/0Gi9auY

Thor is a Skyfather? NO! Not in speed, strengh or durability. May he, in some exceptional occasions, perform a Skyfather level feat, with the hammer? Yes. Same thing for Jane. BUT, she dont did ANY skyfather feat yet.

The Phoenix Fight...she was attacking the Phoenix with Odinson...and they dont did any real damage to it. The White hot room was more like...conceptual, inside her head. Or someone will say that JANE FOSTER without Thor power, tanked a phoenix punch, lol

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/wSnSucj2hj1...7MvcE1Gzmdw=s0
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Jy_UlAAPdIb...7y95NMlIikQ=s0
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/sB0tU7Y3LUO...ClauqUwxBoQ=s0

The feat was WITH Odinson. If anyone want call her Skyfather for that...call him too? Still the page itself give the context for that (Quentin Quire...)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Gu9i70RFmzT...rP00lNBZKaA=s0

P.S: I will add this scan too. Odin, pre secret wars, says he is without Odin-force:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/0uD_IkeE_kK...g-2KSrmgoco=s0

After that, never was said he got it back.

[eaebiakuya]

Aaron's narrative stated that the God Tempest reserved the worst of it's wrath for those that deserved it, and that it had come in judgement of the Asgardian gods. So at least Odin was acting in the defence of Asgard, but as for why it came to Asgard in judgement in the first place wasn't explained. It feels like this God Tempest is another way for Aaron to continue his theme that the gods are not more worthy than anyone else.

I desagree a bit here. The god tempest was not portrayed as something good. It is a galaxy buster thing. Destroyed multiple planets and civilizations. Odin was only protecting his realm.

[Pendaran]

1) Absorb a galaxy buster explosion: http://s388.photobucket.com/user/One...ption.jpg.html

No. This feat has been debunked pretty thoroughly. The bomb never went off. We see what the energy that was fueling it Thor absorbed from it and shot out did. It was not that.

2) Thor godblast destroy the Celestial Dome: https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...2860-26809.jpg

Thor destroyed his own hammer, as enhanced with his belt of strength, to do a thing that the Celestial he did it to barely even noticed. This is not a "galaxy scale" performance.

3) Thor, with 2 Mjolnirs, absorb the Godbomb (who would kill ALL Gods, ALL skyfathers, from everysingle timeline): http://imgur.com/0Gi9auY

Given how other things you've said have turned out, issue number on this?

Also, someone told her sending Odin to a Saturn moon is a great feat? Old King Thor, send Gorr light years away:

http://imgur.com/DLGbY5x

And Old King Thor was without the Odin force for ages. He just started to felling it back when he did that.

So he had the Odinforce when he did that, is what you're saying.

She made a hard fight against Gladiator. A draw.

Given how it ended, why do you feel that said fight was a draw?

[Pendaran]

The Phoenix Fight...she was attacking the Phoenix with Odinson...and they dont did any real damage to it. The White hot room was more like...conceptual, inside her head. Or someone will say that JANE FOSTER without Thor power, tanked a phoenix punch, lol

So your alternate argument is that Jane Foster is merely capable of forcing the Phoenix force out of her head by willing it so?

[The Dork Knight]

Wait so does the current retcon make the previous outlier feats of Thor canon?

[The Dork Knight]

The ish no for Thor absorbing the God Bomb is Thor God of Thunder vol 1 11

[Pendaran]

Wait so does the current retcon make the previous outlier feats of Thor canon?

I wouldn't say so, given that it would make all the times the hammer has been destroyed and repaired, even relatively recently in the ancient hoary days of "the late 2000s" make not a lick of sense. I would wait to see if this whole thing survives Aaron's run on the character.

[Pendaran]

That and even with retcon, the hammer is theoretically only busting out all this crap now because it actually likes Jane or whatever.

[Captain Morgan]

Hi eaebiakuya. Thank you for providing so many scans. They help us to actually evaluate things a lot more than descriptions do. I'm going to try to be polite and respectful here in a way that I haven't necessarily been with the old hats of this board because I think you are relatively new to this forum. I think you are using a very narrative focused perspective when you make your evaluations of power. Nothing wrong with that elsewhere! But here, we have very specific ways of evaluating feats which tries to divorce ourselves from narrative conceit and focus on what the feats actually demonstrate.

A good example is Thor vs Silver Surfer. Thor has always done very well for himself against Surfer in comics. I think he's won more often than not. However, Thor is sometimes treated by Marvel like DC treats Post Crisis Superman: he fights (and sometimes beats) opponents that he has no business stepping into the ring with when examining their performance outside of fights, or the sorts of opponents Thor often struggles with. Silver Surfer chills in black holes, shatters worlds, beats up Beta Ray Bill with his fists, and most importantly has demonstrated reflex speeds that few people not named "Wally West" can match. While Mjolnir would be a great equalizer for the Power Cosmic, an all out Surfer being written to his full potential would blitz Thor and shred him on an atomic level before Thor's neurons could fire.

Is this a perfect measure for dissecting who wins a comic book fight? Nope. But the alternative is basically just "who the author wants to win, wins." With that in mind, I'd like to try to walk you through the thought process here.

Jane is nowhere close to Skyfather level.

The scans you have graciously provided paint a different picture. I'm going to leave Mjolnir and the Mother Storm out of it for now and touch on that later. But she is able to get into a punch fest with Odin that leaves them both battered and bloody with no clear winner. By comparison, a Skyfather beat Hulk's ass so hard it broke his very impressive healing factor, and most of us say Hulk's at least as tough as the Odinson in a fist fight.

Hell, Thanos is a dude drastically stronger and tougher than the Odinson, and perhaps his greatest feat showing it is managing to lose badly to Odin, doing no damage to the All Father but keep coming back for more. There aren't an awful lot of folks who are tougher than Thanos but weaker than a Skyfather. Jane drastically outperforms Thanos, Hulk, or the Odinson there. So there are two conclusions. Either Jane punches and takes punches way better than Hulk, the Odinson, or Thanos. Or Odin was not performing at peak capacity there, either from holding back or simply the writer ignoring how powerful he is.

She made a hard fight against Gladiator. A draw.

Could we see scans of this? If it is as you describe... than it's better than the Odinson. Gladiator has knocked out classic Thor in 3 or 4 punches. At other times, Thor has needed time dilation tech from Reed Richards to match the hyperspeeds Gladz can function at normally. Gladiator has outperformed Thor and Beta Ray Bill against cosmic beings like the Phoenix 5 and Tyrant. He's shattered planets by punching them on panel, and only been mildly concussed from explosions that take out half a solar system. Getting a draw against Gladiator ain't Skyfather good, not even close, but it's stronger than the Odinson.

She traded punchs with Odinson...no winner at all.

Addressed above.

She lost bad to the destroyer.

This is the only thing that sounds like a close performance to classic Thor, but it's weird that she did better against Odin than the Destroyer Armor. Worth mentioning though that written at it's peak, the Destroyer is supposed to be the most powerful weapon Odin ever forged over a millennia of effort so that when he channeled all his power in it he could challenge the Celestials. Classic Thor and Hulk have both been humiliated by the armor, so it isn't like Jane losing to it is something I'd feel especially ashamed of.

I will show here, how Aaron portrays a Odin in his peak.

Odin >>> Mother of Storms

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/DEocvpQTpfl...mcFyf63ta1o=s0
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/mInTPfFOiOy...e7UhvG-PPxk=s0
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/UW0qK8kDwT_...LcbKbEuf4as=s0
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/tduwroQ0mda...Twtl9YzqO9k=s0
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/O-8pVMvQZuz...OasQmlykruc=s0

Great scans. What this shows is that Odin can defeat the Mother of Storms in a fight that lasts days and leaves Odin so drained he immediately collapses after his victory. It doesn't show him as being drastically more powerful the Storm, but rather a peer that managed to win a long and hard fight. So the Mother of Storms itself seems to be a Skyfather level thing. Which we will circle back to later.

Also, someone told her sending Odin to a Saturn moon is a great feat? Old King Thor, send Gorr light years away:

http://imgur.com/DLGbY5x

And Old King Thor was without the Odin force for ages. He just started to felling it back when he did that. When Jane start to send people light years away, maybe we can talk about her being a Skyfather.

Knocking someone across a solar system is a high end class 100 feat, but it takes all of Superman to pull it off against any old person. What makes the Jane thing impressive is she did it to Odin. I haven't actually read Gorr's story yet, but it seems he's someone that classic Thor can go toe to toe with. Sending that dude flying, even hella far, isn't that great on the scale of Skyfathers and Odin.

Now, what we can say is: Maybe Mjolnir is capable of doing galaxy level feats? Well...yes, but...this is nothing new! Thor, in few ocasions did perform galaxy level feats with mjolnir, and i will list then:

1) Absorb a galaxy buster explosion: http://s388.photobucket.com/user/One...ption.jpg.html

2) Thor godblast destroy the Celestial Dome: https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...2860-26809.jpg

3) Thor, with 2 Mjolnirs, absorb the Godbomb (who would kill ALL Gods, ALL skyfathers, from everysingle timeline): http://imgur.com/0Gi9auY
.

I'm not going to evaluate these individually because Pen already has. Suffice to say, most of them have some asterisks next to them, and/or involve Thor and the hammer going to significant strain and effort, sometimes to the point where it practically destroyed one or the other. I'd rate the super nova comet thing as relatively close to these as far as cosmic manipulation goes, and Jane expelled all of the effort of asking the hammer nicely to do it.

Thor is a Skyfather? NO! Not in speed, strengh or durability. May he, in some exceptional occasions, perform a Skyfather level feat, with the hammer? Yes. Same thing for Jane. BUT, she dont did ANY skyfather feat yet

Right, so. None of the stuff for Thor + Hammer that you posted seems more Skyfather-y than what you've posted for Jane + Hammer + Mother Storm, and Jane seems to have required far less effort to draw on that kind of power than Thor does. Now think about the two characters in the arena. Not in a story. They don't need to drain a bomb to save the universe. They don't get to charge up their best attack or power up uninterrupted like an episode of Dragonball Z. Rumbles fights are like a quick draw duel at high noon. The bell rings, and you try to make the other guy dead as fast and efficiently as possible.

In this context, Jane seems to be faster, stronger, and perhaps tougher than classic Thor. Seems like she's got speed and strength comparable to the Sentry. And she seems to be able to casually unleash a force at which is at minimum way above super novas and and at best a Skyfather level entity. The fact that this isn't her own power makes her no less dangerous. Jakeem Thunder had a 5D imp as a genie he could call upon, and was otherwise just a little boy. In the Rumbles arena, unless someone takes down Jakeem before he makes a wish, Jakeem is probably going to win. This doesn't mean Jakeem himself is that powerful for the sake of stories, but it is what it is for Rumbles.

[Captain Morgan]

The Phoenix Fight...she was attacking the Phoenix with Odinson...and they dont did any real damage to it. The White hot room was more like...conceptual, inside her head. Or someone will say that JANE FOSTER without Thor power, tanked a phoenix punch, lol

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/wSnSucj2hj1...7MvcE1Gzmdw=s0
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Jy_UlAAPdIb...7y95NMlIikQ=s0
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/sB0tU7Y3LUO...ClauqUwxBoQ=s0

The feat was WITH Odinson. If anyone want call her Skyfather for that...call him too? Still the page itself give the context for that (Quentin Quire...)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/Gu9i70RFmzT...rP00lNBZKaA=s0

I'll take your word for this being conceptual and say it is irrelevant for evaluating Jane as a Rumbler.

P.S: I will add this scan too. Odin, pre secret wars, says he is without Odin-force:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/0uD_IkeE_kK...g-2KSrmgoco=s0

After that, never was said he got it back.

And now, finally, we have something relevant. You really should have led with that.

If Odin is indeed without the Odin Force and therefore powered down when he threw hands with Jane, then yeah, obviously the fight becomes less significant. That still leaves Jane as someone who can tear vibranium reinforced adamantium with her hands, go even with Gladiator in a slug fest, and perform brain surgery at super sonic speeds. That puts her comfortably above classic Thor. On top of that, she functionally has a genie in a bottle (er, hammer) that gives let's her punch way above her weight class in a fight.

[Beadle]

Good work, CM.

[eaebiakuya]

No. This feat has been debunked pretty thoroughly. The bomb never went off. We see what the energy that was fueling it Thor absorbed from it and shot out did. It was not that.

I will have to re-read the issue, but my impression was that the bomb would just explode that energy, not that it would by somehow multiple the power. But for now i can take your word.

But here is others feats i could gauge as "galaxy level", or at least, above normal Thor "paygrade". I dont know if they were "debunked" here. I can name the godblast who hurted Zelia (who was with Odin power, btw, a feat against a Odin level person far better than the Jane one...), the void he created to protect avengers from the Life-bomb, or the godblast against Galactus (weakned).

Thor destroyed his own hammer, as enhanced with his belt of strength, to do a thing that the Celestial he did it to barely even noticed. This is not a "galaxy scale" performance.

Celestials are universal beings. They are able to create new universes with bare hands:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...+-+page+10.jpg

Later, is confirmed that the multiverse was created by...Celestial fighting eachothers:
https://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-cont...05-600x911.jpg
https://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-cont...03-600x911.jpg

Then, of course, anything that is not close to universal level will not harm much a Celestial. Adult Franklin Richards itself was unable to beat 3 Celestials at the same time.

But Thor was able to attack with so many energy that it break a reinforced Mjolnir, and it broke the dome of the Celestial (wich is harder than the rest of the body). It did more than the blast of the Skyfathers (wich..were fighting against a weaker Celestial!). PIS? Ok i can buy that. But then you can say " Thor had feats of Galaxy level, but they were outliers or PIS". It is not the same to " Thor never perfomed like that. Jane must be a Skyfather".

How do you rate this feat? Do you think this is below those Jane feats?

So he had the Odinforce when he did that, is what you're saying.

Yes, here is the page: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-IU3wqOb0KY...0-Ic42/007.jpg

Also with Odinforce this old king thor revived Thor. Present Odin cant heal her wife...

Given how it ended, why do you feel that said fight was a draw?

Do you give this a win for Gladiator? I say it was a draw because the fight just was interrupted before we could call someone a winner?

Here is the fight:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/AMKmHbyTviQ...lpYPlVW31n8=s0
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/2LQnG7bB2Y8...R7rg3EDkyRa=s0
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/z8cZ3MyUJcO...lFyoCjVGist=s0
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/eIA7-oDrS15...zHDewssC1-Q=s0
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/CZ9NcD-HhIH...4aNmAHEr1JW=s0

[eaebiakuya]

So your alternate argument is that Jane Foster is merely capable of forcing the Phoenix force out of her head by willing it so?

The context: Quentin, asgardians and Jane were fighting against Phoenix. The were trying to weaken it, to Quentin be able to join the white hot room, to talk with Phoenix.

During the fight, Phoenix invited Jane to this room (her mind). Phoenix made a bargain: give me the Mjolnir and i leave the universe alone. Jane said no and give this "punch" in Phoenix and get out. The Phoenix was not trying to mind rape jane or anything like this. The Phoenix never tried to take control of her mind. I dont think this is a "TP resistance feat" at all.

Do you think Jane, without the power of Thor, can withstand a punch from Phoenix?